My Skippy Runneth Over

[mew5280]

So, my skippy filter worked amazingly all summer, clear water after about a week or so and no problems since. When I finished it, I threw some roots on the top (water parsley, some lilies, pennywort). The water parsley went nuts. I had to cut it off a few times it was getting so high. It's also in the pond and took over there. I removed a lot of it from the pond last weekend.

This week the skippy filter started flowing over the top as well as through the drain pipe. I know the problem is the plants and the fact that I used a Rubbermaid plastic container instead of something sturdier. So I'm going to try to find the horse trough container this weekend and start over again.

Here's the "before" photo of the pond

And after the plant trim, this is just before the filter started to flow over the top.

The plants I know helped to filter the water. Do you think if I use the heavy duty horse trough container I can still have plants in the filter without the overflow? Or should I use a different plant? My pond did an amazing job of reproducing anachris from a few sprigs. It's covering several corners of the pond and gives the fish some cover as well as cleaning the water, would that do well on the top of a skippy? Or should I just leave it alone with only the filter media? I hope I can use all the same piping.

 

[addy1]

I think you could, a stronger container will do well. Your plants sure have grown. If the arachris would be under water on top of your skippy don't see why it would not do well.

 

[DrCase]

Put a barrier around the outlet of the filter to keep hold the plants back a little
Your pond looks great

 

[Waterbug]

Wow, that container looks ready to split wide open. Hopefully the pump isn't at the bottom of the pond. Hate for you to wake to an empty pond some morning.

Couple of things you could do with the horse tough. Install multiple outlets. More is better when there's a chance of clogs. Build an overflow, at least you'd control where it overflows.

For plants I'm trying to think of short roots and can only come up with duck weed. A barrier is a good idea too, but long roots can be a problem.

I don't think plants in a Skippy for this kind of pond is a problem because the Skippy probably isn't actually needed. A Skippy is a bio filter for adding surface area to grow more bacteria to convert ammonia. I assume ammonia was never actually an issue as the picture looks like a perfect water garden, not too many fish. Skippies have nothing to do with clear water. I know tons of people say Skippies will clear a pond but there's never been any evidence and lots of empirical evidence to the contrary.

However, if the Skippy was actually needed to reduce ammonia then plants wouldn't be a good idea because they create a lot of debris which settles on the surfaces making the space unsuitable for bacteria. Roots clog water flow thru media. Then again, if ammonia was an issue there are better filters like a trickle tower. Fish farms that need bio filters use trickle towers rather than Skippies. Skippies are only popular with hobbyists because they're easy and fun to build.

I love your pond.

 

[koiguy1969]

atleast in my experience..saying a "properly built" skippy style doesnt do anything to clean the water is false. whereas they may not capture all fines, they catch a great deal of large to semi fine particulates.(the ones that dont are likely getting to much water pushed thru them) if you take a skippy style filter and install a dump or flush valve on it as many of us here have.. you would be amazed at the amount of muck that flushes out. i use large prefilters, draw my water from about 1/2 way up the depth of my pond, and my water looks clean and clear to the naked eye before it even hits the filter. and gunk still flushes out in pretty good amounts...dark green and dark brown to back sludge. thats the purpose of the swirl bars and the sump or sediment area. just like when you were akid and did a whirl pool in your round swimming pool, and any debris in the pool would gather and settle in a nice pile in the center.the swirl bars do the same thing. if this werent true. the water would come out clean when flushed. its true that skippy filters are said to never need cleaning. and i dont readilly agree with that, but even if its true i would still prefer to have that option due to the fact that a clean filter is a more efficient filter.and is less likely to turn anaerobic. i will say that i dont use the floor scrubber pads like they do.i use commercial pot style scrubbies. they are tighter. i always have over 200 inches of fish in my 1200 gal pond.my water is gin clear and parameters are stable and ideal. as this vey moment i have 6 17" - 20" fish, 1 6" and over 50 2"- 3" and my water is perfect. i have never actually went out of my way to clean my media, but it does get a light swishing in a baby pool full of pond water when i transfer fish between ponds, (indoors and out). i use the same media 24/7/365.

 

[Waterbug]

If a Skippy is collecting silt I wouldn't consider it a mechanical filter. Silt on media kill nitrifying bacteria. If that's the purpose I think other filters, like fabric filters, work much better. Or just vacuuming. If silt is settling inside a filter with flowing water there's many times more silt on the bottom of the pond.

If a Skippy is suppose to be a bio filter and collected silt it wouldn't be properly built.

But by "clean water" I was referring to green water.

We add a filter to clear water. When water clears we credit the filter and ourselves. Anecdotal evidence. Certainly there are 100's, 1,000's of ponds with Skippies which have green water. And certainly there 100's, 1,000's of ponds with no filter and clear water. There's nothing unique about what's going on inside a Skippy that isn't going on inside the pond, stream, waterfalls.

 

[koiguy1969]

the silt as you call it doesnt collect on the media...it collects in the bottom of the filter...to be flushed out....no one said anything about it collecting on the media. if its getting in the media your filter plumbing is to small in diameter or your pumping too much water thru the filter. the silt settles before hitting the media. or atleast a great amount iof it... and with my prefilter set up my water is clear before it even hits my filter....i can take a large glass bottle and fill it with the water coming from my filter inlet hose and its clean and virtually crystal clear.

 

[Waterbug]

I'm not saying a Skippy can't be set up as a bio filter, I just don't see it very often. Way, way more often I see scrubby pads added as the bio media. They collect silt. Maybe the term sediment is more to your liking? I think maybe you know what I mean by silt. The people online explaining how to build these even say "the scrubby pads are the bio media AND also trap crap". I don't think most people have a very good understanding of what bacteria need.

There is also a maintenance reality. The ponds I've cleaned in the past I have never found a functioning bio mechanical combo filter, Skippy or otherwise. It is always packed with silt. A lot of stuff would seem to come out the drain but there was still a lot inside. When asked how often they cleaned it they look at the ground and say, well, not as often as they should. They feel guilty. They feel better when I tell them it doesn't do any harm because obviously the extra bio filtering wasn't ever needed since the fish are fine and ammonia is zero. However, when I suggested removing the "filter" I never had anyone do it. "No, just clean it and put it back into service". So I assume they still thought it was doing something. That's OK, it's a hobby, people should have the pond they want. They didn't mind paying the bill so everyone is happy.

And Koiguy, I think I saw your Skippy in your video...if so, Skippy would not be the term I would use to describe your setup. It looked like a standard multi-compartment filter. Great filter. Bio balls do stay clean. And absolutely the best feature of your filter, not seen on most hobbyist filters, is it looked easy to clean.

But, getting back to whether Skippies clear green water...maybe I can give you what you want. I can see a case where a pond has had green water for a while and a Skippy is added. There is already some antibiotic producing bacteria in the pond or some are introduced with plants. The brand new Skippy provides the additional surface area for the antibiotic producing bacteria which don't have to compete with the nitrifying bacteria because there's no ammonia. The antibiotic producing bacteria had been having a hard time getting a foothold in the pond and the Skippy gives them the extra space they needed. Add that to the old algae bloom and the tide turns. So the Skippy could help speed up the end of an algae bloom by days, maybe weeks. At that point the Skippy could be removed and the water would stay clear for months or years. The antibiotic producing bacteria would have the upper hand.

Adding a stream or any filter can have the same effect under those conditions.

If that meets the definition of "clearing green water" then yes, I concede, Skippies clear green water. It doesn't meet my definition. To me clearing green water means it always clears green water. A UV filter, when installed correctly, will always clear green water. 100% of time, no exceptions. I feel OK telling people UV filters clear green water. I would never say that about a Skippy because it's very hit and miss. And I think there are way better options to Skippies which have as good or a better chance of working. Streams have added aesthetic value, so win-win. Subsurface gravel bog also looks good, little maintenance, and has the plus of keeping algae in the dark for long periods which doesn't help it any. And even a trickle tower, at least keeps the media surface stays clean without maintenance and they can add aesthetic value to both the eyes and ears.

The main appeal Skippies have always had is that they are a doable project for the DIY hobbyist. It looks complicated enough to be a gadget, not too expensive, easy to explain to visitors who are impressed and it sits proudly on a pedestal for all to admire. Number of Skippies used by serious Koi owners, near zero. Number used by fish farms, near zero. They're super fun to build. I enjoyed building several. People should enjoy the hobby. But expect clear water...well, maybe.

Rest assured I will not beat this dead horse in this forum. People like Skippies. They're harmless if you have the cash and I don't want to rain on people's parade. I just like to bring up these concepts every five years or so and see if the hobby has progress any. To my delight it has in many areas. Green water control isn't one of those areas, but it's a difficult subject.

 

[koiguy1969]

O.K I use scubby pads..finer than skippys normally. 3 years and you can still read the print on them (3M). my filter is a biological filter. my mechanical filtration is done "in pond" by 2 large prefilters...as i said my water is clear before it even enters my "SKIPPY", which in fact, as you said may not really be a skippy just their basic plumbing, and container. but i give credit where its due. first off i utilize all, except 3" of the container (stocktank) because i use a weir, not a toilet flange that has to be mounted 1/2 way down the tank. i put 1200 gph thru 1&1/2" plumbing....by the time the water hits my media, whats in it has mostly settled on the bottom. i dont get all that silt build up on my media. now i use the same media in my outdoor and basement pond. so every fall before going to the baement ponds filter and every spring when it goes back outside i swish it around in a baby pool full of pond water. the first year, media got pretty silty, i learned...my prefilters capture everything before it hits the pumps impellor and is pureed and sent to the filter as poop soup and silt. my prfilters are old small tetrapond external filters i converted. ... my prefilters have 5 pads each stacked in order of coarseness. they include an A.C PAD as well. not sure if they actually perform as A.C any more but are a fantastic fines media.

 

[Waterbug]

Koiguy, I don't think the observations are matching up with the conclusions. A pad still clean enough to read writing after 3 years is not technically bio filtering anything. A pad with a colony of bacteria will be covered in a brown, almost like paint substance after just a month or so. Even in a pond that doesn't actually need a bio filter I'd still expect some visible bacteria colonies on the pads just because they do spread out. That the pads are almost completely clean tells me this pond is miles away from needing any bio filter whatsoever. In the past 3 years there's been virtually no food for bacteria to reproduce enough to create visible colonies. I'm not trying to take a cheap shot here, but your observations do more to prove my point than I ever could. Bio filters, for almost all Water Gardens, are no where close to being needed. They're more of an affectation...which is perfectly fine imo...it's a hobby, people should have fun and do what they want. But I think a lot of new pond owners come here, get told they must install a bio filter, do so, see no improvement and end up filling in a pond. Providing false expectations is not helping.

As for silt build up...your observations make sense to me. A clean pond doesn't have the material needed to cover media. I've never been asked to help with a pond because the water was too clear. On top of that you seem like the type that cleans the pre-filter as needed. In my experience the reason for unclear water in an older pond is lack of maintenance. The pre-filter clogs, water goes around it and starts clogging the scrubbies.

And unclear water is actually a key requirement for mechanical filters to work, and further the material making the water unclear if key. The openings in scrubbies, or almost all pads, are huge compared to most of the stuff we're trying to remove. They sail through pads like they're not there. Then a bigger chunk comes sailing along and partly covers an opening. As this repeats the openings get smaller and smaller, trapping smaller and smaller bits.

It's like a door opening on a house. You can carry a 2x4 thru long wise, but side ways and it jams and you keep pushing, like the pressure difference in a filter on either side of the media. Now the door way is partly blocked. Here comes another 2x4 in a random pattern, it's even more likely to get jammed. 10, 20, 50 2x4s get jammed in the door way. A huge pile depth can form. There are now 1,000's of very small openings. Now here comes dozens of golf balls, some get jammed in the small openings. Exponentially more and smaller holes. Here comes a cloud of rice, jammed. Exponentially more and smaller holes. On and on until the openings are under 25 microns and now even single cell algae is being trapped. Still smaller holes. Now decomposed single cells are trapped. Now the holes are so small even water molecules have a hard time getting thru and the media has to be cleaned.

This is how a diatomaceous earth filter works. The diatomaceous earth provides the larger bits needed to create the smaller openings. Without it a pool won't be crystal clear.

The other thing to keep in mind is this matrix build up is 3D. This is different from something like a drinking water filter. They're engineered so the openings are already small, they let nothing thru above a certain size. The down side is one particle clogs one hole. That's OK for basically clean water, but would clog in minutes in even a "clear" pond. It's the 3D matrix in pond filters which allows for the massive collection of material before clogging.

And this is why mechanical filters won't clear a new algae blooms in new ponds. There just isn't enough large particles to build a matrix. After a few months the algae form colonies, dead stuff starts to build and now a mechanical filter will work. This is also why a UV filter along with a mechanical creates crystal clear water. The UV kills the algae, the dead cell clump thru particle attraction and the mechanical removes the now larger clumps. Antibiotic producing bacteria reproduce from all the food. For the following years any new algae cells are overwhelmed by the antibiotics. The UV is no longer needed. The mechanical filter can stay in place but may not have to be cleaned for years.

If we do something to harm the antibiotic producing bacteria, like muddy up the water messing with plants, or add some chemicals, large water change (the build of antibiotics is key), whatever, the algae can get the upper hand, they have defenses against the bacteria, and the cycle repeats.

So I do agree with you that in a clear pond with some maintenance a Skippy won't clog. It also doesn't do anything, or almost anything.

 

[koiguy1969]

we are gonna have to agree to disagree.... i know my pond my filter...i know my filter...my filter performs its biological duties fantastically... the clear water going into the filter is due to the mechanical large to fines in my prefilter setup....i am not gonna beat a dead horse in this discussion...my media has an opaque brown film but you can still see some of the print...you are too intent on proving me wrong to see anything except your own opinion. i'm leaving this discussion and wont entertain it further!i use the same media in my filter for my basement pond as well, it comes in with the fish...no sun ..no alge..no plants bare liner ..200+ inches of fish and my parameters are still good.

 

[brandonsdad02]

I have a skippy filter and it works great. I have my pump in my savio skimmer box which has a 2100 gph pump. I have a 1 1/2" hose coming off the pump onto the skippy. I followed the build for the skippy as it was shown on the site. I did go to a local janitorial supply store to get 3 boxes of the 18" floor scrubber pads and cut them up. My pads have the good bacteria on them based on what was said above. I do have pre filter media in my skimmer box after the water passes thru the strainer basket. I am interested in putting in a flush valve tho. Would I install that where the drain plug is? I must say that I have been more than impressed with the filter this year. I haven't had any problems with it and it has kept my pond clear all summer even with heat we have had.

 

[koiguy1969]

locate your flush valve on the opposite side from the drain plug...if you use the drain plug, theyre not quite big enough..a 2" shower drain and ballvalve is what we all use. the bigger the flush assembly the faster the fkush.. the fasrer the flush, the more suction it creates. the more suction it creates the more debris it will remove.. is your tank the old style or the new?....did you have to mount your oulet 1/2 way down the tank? or did you use a weir as i did, so you could utilize the whole tank?