New strain of algae?

[milocat2012]

Thank you Charles,
My husband designed this pond: we build it 3 years ago, but for the first 2 seasons we're just keep remaking and expanding it to what you see on that picture. Originally we started with 200 gallons gold fish plastic tab pond but by the end of 2011 we had 1200 gallons liner pond. The stream wasn't a part of it then. The next season we added the stream and expanded it by splicing liner 2 more times to make it 3200 gallons.
Here i want to write the situation what maybe someone would have some kind of advice for me:
First i'll try to explain what was happening past 2 months.
Ever since that time of that horrific incident that poison my fish i've been having lots of problems with fish i had survived and i got some new ones too. As i understand that that bad near death incident caused to fish to be weak and susceptible to all deceases.
i had everything: ulcers fin/mouth rot, parasites, you name it. sometimes couple of weeks after that incident I've started to notice fish flashing and one of them was swimming with his fins clamped to his body. Also a few fish were coming down with ulcers/ fin-tail rot. it was happening sometime in the beginning of June. First i did the whole pond potassium treatment as i read all the benefits of it killing the parasites and bacteria in one shot and treating ulcers as well: i carefully followed directions and dosage, but the problem is that you can't keep water pink for 5 hours as all the directions recommended. After 1-1.5 hours water turns brown, so potassium used up it's power. No matter how much I've tried to clean pond prior to treatment. I don't think for this amount of time it would kill too much bacteria or parasites. I did it twice with same result. I even redosed it half a dose after it turned brown. Fish tolerate it pretty good, but i don't think for the amount of time it lasted it did the work that needed for my pond, because flashing didn't stop.
I didn't bother to do any more potassium treatments and followed the advice of fish expert from Aqua Med from last year: did 3 treatments with terminate: http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Fish-Medications where i saw a big improvement right after 3rd treatment, then i followed with treatment of prazi. The only thing i've decided to use liquid form of prazi, that already premixed. i'm not sure if it's actually as effective as the powder form, because just couple weeks after all the treatments fish started to flash even more them before. So i decided to retreat with powder form of prazi and put second dose it after 4 days since the first dose. It was kind of weird reaction of fish: they were flashing even more during treatment then before. I'm not sure if the prazi medication was irritated them: (which would've been strange: i always though that prazi is very mild and not stressful to fish) or maybe the medication was killing flukes and they were biting my fish more before diying. It's just a theory that i thought of. Anyway i waited 10 days without water change and looked like fish calm down and look pretty good toward the end of treatment. As a pro caution after prazi i decided to give another 3 treatments of terminate. i did'n scope fish to determine what kind of parasites they had, because i didn't want to stress them more by clipping their gills. I did this kind of treatment last year and it worked very well, as it targets most of parasites that live on the fish in 3-4 steps and not stressful to fish. It seemed to work this year as well.

During all this and i had to treat the fish with ulcers (about 5 of them) with baytril injections. Problem is that 4 of them recovered fine all ulcers healed, but 1 just deteriorated and it looked like the injections only made it worse: it started with little tiny red spot on it's side, then a week later he started to lose his colors and ulcer got bigger (see the picture before last one) took him out isolated him with Q-tank with Nitrofuracin Green plus some mela fix and gave him 5 injections, but it looked like the injections just did him worse not better, as every place he was injected broke out in even bigger ulcer then before (see last picture).
I've tried to give him some antibiotic baths with Ulcer Aid, but it didn't help and he eventually died about month later. By that time i noticed other fish: my 16'' chagoy had small ulcer on it's side and little one on his tail. I was afraid to inject him after what it did to other fish and just was giving him 7 days 4-5 minuts baths with ulcer aid plus put topical treatment on the ulcers, but unfortunately during that 7-8 days his ulcers were just getting bigger and worse, and he dot an additional one on his belly so a week ago i had no choice but started the injections. and at the same time i noticed one of the fish (10''shiro utsuri) was always hiding and not eating for a few days, so i took him out for inspection and saw that he was coming down with mouth rot, so i isolated both of them with Nitrofuracin Green mela-pima fix combination and 0.5% salt in the Q tank. Started the injections last monday. Both of them were doing ok, look like healing: 10'' shiro utsuri i was giving about of 0.4 ml if baytril each injection and 16'' chagoy about 0.8 ml. Friday was 4th injection and everything looked ok: mouth rot almost all white so was healing good, but yesterday it was last and final injection time and i discovered that shiro came down with some case of dropsy: he's got all blown up razed scales bulging eyes. I still gave him 5th injection, but i don't know what else i can do to possibly save him? is any other ideas or anything you'd recommend in the case like this. I's obviously some kind of internal problems that he has, bacterial infection or kidney failure. I'm not sure if it started in the pond even before i took him out, or is it possible that it was caused by medications? then i took him out he looked ok except small case of mouth rot. I was even surprised that he was acting strange: not eating and hiding because of it. I had some fish with worse conditions of mouth/fin rot and ulcers, that were acting normal, and eating normal.
I had another case of dropsy in my other koi (17'' kuhaku: first 2 pictures) in early spring in April. 1st pic. is when took him out before stating treatment, and the second one was taken after 3rd injection, so you can see how he improved. I noticed him with razed scales and he was like this for a couple of weeks before i act on it. I gave him the 5 0.9 ml each baytril injections and kept him in usual isolated 0.5% salt tank with Nitrofuracin Green After 3 injection the swelling came down and he looked fine. He still is fine, the only thing he had that he reacted on parasite problem different then other fish: not by flashing but by clamping his fins. But stopped doing it after 3 terminate treatments.
So far other fish in the pond look ok for a long time of problems. I haven't notice of any flashing or weird behavior lately.
I'd like to do anything else if possible to save that dropsy fish. Since all the 5 injections were already given it's probably no use to give him more? maybe reduce medication in the water and only keep salt? The 3rd picture is of him in the beginning when i took him out just mild case of top mouth rot, nothing more visible. then next 3 is the ulcers on chagoy. then the next 2 is now shiro with dropsy and the way biggest ulcer looks like on Chagoy. and the last 2 is the fish that died before and after the injections. Unfortunately the injections don't help all the fish.
Any ideas or advice as of what else can i do to treat dropsy would be greatly appreciated.
Just to explain what you see on the pictures: 1st 2nd is Kuhaku with dropsy in April before treatment and after 3rd injection, next 4 is the mouth rot and ulcers taken last monday before starting treatments, and last 2 taken yesterday when i discovered dropsy in shiro utsuri, and the biggest ulcer on chagoy to see how it's healing. ,

 

[Dave 54]

U;cers are primarily caused by the bacteria known as Areomonas Hydrophila bacteria which all of us have in our ponds and provided our fish are healthy it isnt normally a problem at all.
You normally will see it attack the fish causing ulcers when the fish are stressed for some reason i;e temerature fluctuations over crowding poor water quality and a number of other factors .
Normally if caught early it can be treated with a good bacteriacide we ourselves use a special treatment known as koi Clear Gel:-

http://www.absolute-koi.com/prod2087.html

It is an Ozonated gel that you have to keep in the fridge until used , you take a bit of the gel from the tub and float it in a small container in a bowl of warm water.
You next anethatize your koi then clean up the wound removing ant dead tissue around the edges and in the ulcer itself you do this with cotton buds moving ouwards from the wound one bud fo each sweep outwards then using a soft tooth brush gently scrub the edges until they bleed a little.
Next using your finger you spread the gel over the wound covering it and the surounding scales finally for one minute you wrap the koi in clingfilm to set the gel bring the koi back around and let it go about its normally fishy life ,
Two applications should see the ulcer completely healed leaving you to sort out your ater issues the wound should heal totally with the scales growing back as normal.
The treatment is based around a Japanese human treatment where they use Ozonated treatments in hospitals .
You seem to have treated your pond with one hell of alott of treatments which isnt advisable causing your koi more stress than necessary.
Potasium Panagamate is overkill it nukes your pond killing both good and bad bacteria and water changes are normally recmended after using PP
Baytril is a thick liquid and something I wouldnt inject our koi with prefaring instead to use it with food break dow your baytril treatment adding 25 ml into a ziplock bag then add four feeds zip the bag shut then gently kneed he bag around in your hands until it has all been taken up by the pellets repeat this after each four feeds have been used up so thats 25ml per bag per four feeds its hit and miss but each koi will get a full dose .
I wouldnt use it for dropsy as you simply dont know which form of dropsy you have normally its bacterial i;e organ failure cause bt a bacterial problem but you also have it induced by a virus an is viral dropsy, owever you normally see more than one koi at a time with it but it can also be caused by a parasite which attacks the kidneys.
Preventative messures are good water quality, a good healthy and well ballanced diet (never use last seasons food)..
The first treatment for dropsy should be to salt at 11-14lb per 220 imperial gallons for at least 3-5 days so a QT fasility is needed (we have one that holds 550 imperial gallons) this is to avoid stressing your other fish and raising the water temperature 1c per day to over 25c or up to 30c if deemed necessary .
You can also add a good bacteriacide that is safe to use with salt, our choice would be acriflavine but any salt safe one could be used you may get lucky but be aware that the koi will relapse again at a later date and you will loose it due to organ damage
I hope this goes to help you in the future milocat2012 but remember all these conditions are avoidable and through good husbardry to the pond and filters also with plenty of water changes etc, should become a thing of the past my friend

Dave

 

[milocat2012]

Thank you Dave, for some useful info. That Koi Clear gel sounds very interesting. Unfortunately i tried to look up at the web if it's available for sale anywhere in US, and couldn't find it. It's probably something new and only available for sale in UK. I don't even know if they would ship to US, i would guess not, as customs have lots of limitations on meds. But even if it was possible the cost of shipping from UK would be too much anyway. Maybe eventually it would come on sale here. So far any topical treatments for ulcers or antibiotic baths really didn't get any results. i normally used this: http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Bio-Bandage and this http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Ulcer-Aid-Rx-Kit for bath or just sprinkle the powder on the lesion. But always disinfect the ulcer the fist time just ones with potassium. I actually got rid of tail and fin rot in my big butterfly koi by just Unfortunately just doing topical treatment along never gave me good results. Maybe if i can ever get my hands on the stuff that you mentioned it could be better. I did use the injection of baytril on many fish before: i use 5% solution that already premixed for injections on animals. Usually some vet stores sell it. Like i mentioned before i was able to save that other fish from dropsy back in april with injections. However the case of dropsy in kuhaku wasn't as severe as in the fish that had it now. Unfortunately despite all my efforts, the dropsy killed him this morning. Poor fellow was so blown up, that he barely could move before he died. most fish that i gave the injections recovered really well, just couple of them didn't cope with it and eventually died. As for stress factor you mention, unfortunately i had plenty of it this season: it started with pretty harsh winter, then very weird cold spring for the second year in the row with big temperature swings, and then that toxic gas that my filter released that poison most of my fish and stressed out survivors. You're right about potassium treatment, i shouldn't have done it. It was just acting from desperation when evidently i had big parasite and ulcer problems, i followed the advice of somebody from our local koi farm to try and treat it with potassium Anyway it's in the past and i sure wouldn't do it again in the future. the other treatments that i did were necessary the terminate: http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Koi-Rx-Terminate-For-Fungal-Parasitic-Control and following prazi combinations, seemed to solve that parasitic problem in my pond, and i was very mild on the fish, they didn't show any stress during treatments, where acting and eating normally. Actually their appetite wasn't so great during the whole time that they show all the evidence of parasites present. Now that it seems to be solved they're eating like crazy, can't put enough food for them. Of course i try not to overfeed them. As for water changes i did so much of it this year after each treatment drained about 30%. and include the drain and refill of full 3200 gallons of contaminated water after that poison. Plus since the filter need to be backwashed i do it approximately every 5 days, plus vacuum the bottom with pond vac, so that means that pond has probably around 10% change every 5 days, also i lose a little water due to waterfall splash and evaporation, so sometime had to top it up every couple of days. So now i still have that other fish with multiple ulcers in the Q-tank, he's done with his injections, and ulcers look like healing, almost all turned white, so i'll put him back in the pond tomorrow. i tried to feed him medicated food, but he doesn't seem to want to eat, it's not unusual, as most fish really don't have to much appetite in smaller place as Q-tank.
Thanks again for your advice.
Kira

 

[Dave 54]

Thank you Dave, for some useful info. That Koi Clear gel sounds very interesting. Unfortunately i tried to look up at the web if it's available for sale anywhere in US, and couldn't find it. It's probably something new and only available for sale in UK. I don't even know if they would ship to US, i would guess not, as customs have lots of limitations on meds. But even if it was possible the cost of shipping from UK would be too much anyway. Maybe eventually it would come on sale here. So far any topical treatments for ulcers or antibiotic baths really didn't get any results. i normally used this: http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Bio-Bandage and this http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Ulcer-Aid-Rx-Kit for bath or just sprinkle the powder on the lesion. But always disinfect the ulcer the fist time just ones with potassium. I actually got rid of tail and fin rot in my big butterfly koi by just Unfortunately just doing topical treatment along never gave me good results. Maybe if i can ever get my hands on the stuff that you mentioned it could be better. I did use the injection of baytril on many fish before: i use 5% solution that already premixed for injections on animals. Usually some vet stores sell it. Like i mentioned before i was able to save that other fish from dropsy back in april with injections. However the case of dropsy in kuhaku wasn't as severe as in the fish that had it now. Unfortunately despite all my efforts, the dropsy killed him this morning. Poor fellow was so blown up, that he barely could move before he died. most fish that i gave the injections recovered really well, just couple of them didn't cope with it and eventually died. As for stress factor you mention, unfortunately i had plenty of it this season: it started with pretty harsh winter, then very weird cold spring for the second year in the row with big temperature swings, and then that toxic gas that my filter released that poison most of my fish and stressed out survivors. You're right about potassium treatment, i shouldn't have done it. It was just acting from desperation when evidently i had big parasite and ulcer problems, i followed the advice of somebody from our local koi farm to try and treat it with potassium Anyway it's in the past and i sure wouldn't do it again in the future. the other treatments that i did were necessary the terminate: http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Koi-Rx-Terminate-For-Fungal-Parasitic-Control and following prazi combinations, seemed to solve that parasitic problem in my pond, and i was very mild on the fish, they didn't show any stress during treatments, where acting and eating normally. Actually their appetite wasn't so great during the whole time that they show all the evidence of parasites present. Now that it seems to be solved they're eating like crazy, can't put enough food for them. Of course i try not to overfeed them. As for water changes i did so much of it this year after each treatment drained about 30%. and include the drain and refill of full 3200 gallons of contaminated water after that poison. Plus since the filter need to be backwashed i do it approximately every 5 days, plus vacuum the bottom with pond vac, so that means that pond has probably around 10% change every 5 days, also i lose a little water due to waterfall splash and evaporation, so sometime had to top it up every couple of days. So now i still have that other fish with multiple ulcers in the Q-tank, he's done with his injections, and ulcers look like healing, almost all turned white, so i'll put him back in the pond tomorrow. i tried to feed him medicated food, but he doesn't seem to want to eat, it's not unusual, as most fish really don't have to much appetite in smaller place as Q-tank.
Thanks again for your advice.
Kira

Kiral I can understand the customs restrictions they stopped thanx to a ban on certain E numbers etc a number of Japanese foods we used to use one was a liver conditioner called Billion .
I mentioned the koi Clear Gel on a South African site that I go on the Owner was quite interested and contacted them it turned iut that they like bulk buys and at £25.00 per pot that is quite a wad of cash to pay out however reading the reviews it got was well worth it because everyone was astounded at the recovery their fish made Pieter Odedall the dealer made his money and everyone was happy .
What about in coversation mentioning it to your local koi dealership to see if they can get it in.
All it is is an Ozonated vegetable gel you dont get te scaring and out of position scales that ulcers tend to leave behind.
A brilliant book for you to buy is "Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases", A handbook of fish pharmacology and Materia Medica . by Ne;lson Herwig no IBSN.
Sorry to hear about the dropsy koi sadly you cant always turn them around , PP I dont like using baically for its indescriminate killing og all things bacterial.


Dave

 

[milocat2012]

Hi Dave, Yes i did e-mailed a couple of big pond US retailers about possibly get this product in US. I provided the websites that you gave me and some others on the pond forums with photos and comments about how this product works. One of them did reply to me already that they can't get it. They didn't explain why, if they just can't get it or maybe not too interested. I know it's quite pricey, but i had so much trouble with ulcers in my fish, that myself and i'm sure that people like me would be gladly bought it, but i'm not sure how many people would be actually buying it. if and maybe that's why retailers wouldn't want to take a chance and buy bulk of expensive merchandise and possibly not being able to sell it. The product possibly could be great (of course i can't judge myself but but what i read about it it sounds amazing) but i can understand the retailer prospective: they are there to make money, and it doesn't matter how good product this, if the price of bulk merchandise is to high for them they probably wouldn't do it. I'm still waiting for the reply from that big Japanese koi importer farm that has 3 locations in US: Hawaii, here in NJ and New york state . They do sell expensive merchandize and hight priced Japanese koi, so i'm hopping that maybe the hight bulk price wouldn't scare them. They e-mail me back that they will check into it. So let's see what they will say later. I also e-mailed to those UK retailers with question if it could be shipped in US and if they can ship it what would be shipping charges.
As for PP treatment you mentioned: i know that it would kill good bacteria along with bad one, so i did bypass my bio filter while pond was on treatment. But personally i've tried it for the first time this year and i don't think i'd ever do it again, because it's a lot of work to do 4 treatments, and you still can't keep water pink for required amount of time, too many factors disabling PP in the water, and the result really wasn't great: it didn't kill the parasites i still had to refer other methods/medications to solve parasite/ulcer problems. I think the easiest and safest method i found for myself is to apply 3 treatments of terminate: this med is specially formulated treatment for salt resistant parasites and fungal disease! Terminate is formulated with Malachite Green (chloride) and Formalin (MG&F) and is very safe for treating costia, chilodonella, icy, oodinium and fungal infections. I've done it a couple of times and result is good, and it doesn't stress out the fish also doesn't set back filters. And then the best after terminate to treat the pond with dose of Prazi to kill any flukes if present. I think i'll do those treatments as a precautionary every spring, just to eliminate problems in a future. I had the same problems with parasites then later create ulcers and other bacterial issues in fish for 2 seasons in the row. Hopefully if i do this kind of treatment early spring it will eliminate problems later in the season.

 

[milocat2012]

Just got a reply from one of the UK sellers and he's saying that US customs wouldn't even allow this product in. So unless it would ever start being sold by US retailers, i'd never be able to get my hands on it anyway unfortunately. Well let's hope that my problems would not come back anytime soon.

 

[Dave 54]

Just got a reply from one of the UK sellers and he's saying that US customs wouldn't even allow this product in. So unless it would ever start being sold by US retailers, i'd never be able to get my hands on it anyway unfortunately. Well let's hope that my problems would not come back anytime soon.

Thats a bummer the South Africans jumped on the treatment and it got rave reviews from them all the way down the line.
But its swings and roundabouts when it comes down to some treatments . for flukes we use a flubendazole based treatment called fluke M made by Kusuri it comes in 65g pouches which will treat 5,500 gallons imperial

Dave