Possible noisy pump

[Boothy]

Hello guys,

When we bought our house I inherited an existing pond with a couple of fish in it, it had a rather large stream (visible on google earth) but the pond itself was about 6' square with a couple of shelves for plants and just about 3' in its deepest part.

After discovering the two fish (believe it of not the outgoing owner told me there were none) I added a couple of small koi of my own and plodded on. Sadly the build of the pond was pretty poor and every time the pump was switched on the stream lost water and emptied the pond limiting the amount I could leave it on, about twelve months in the old pump burned out so I looked on ebay and picked up an 8000 litre pondxpert pump as I needed something with enough head to try to drive the stream... To be honest it struggled but I knew that as we changed the garden I would need to re think the pond.

Move on another twelve months and a newly pregnant wife suggested the I start to think quickly about the pond and what I was going to do with it. After spotting the injection molded Koi type ponds I quickly came up with a plan to build a raised pond.

I re used the existing filter an Oase filtoclear 6000 and the pondexpert pump as the new pond is only 1400 litres but shortly after finishing it on the day I added the fish and standing in wet shoes I got an electric shock off the water! Thank god the fish were ok as when I added them I was clearly not earthing as well.
I traced the fault to the pump and isolated it and then made a rather angry call to the sparks to ask them about the RCD that does not appear to be working...

This time round I decided it would be better to get a better quality pump so invested in a Hozelock aquaforce 2500, after reading the instructions with regards to mounting I inverted one of the black pond type plant pots and fixed it to the bottom of the pump with stainless screws so it now sits about 140mm off the bottom of the pond.
The thing is the fish now seem to spend all of their time trying to hide behind it and you can hear the pump running when you are stood at the side of the pond... I do not remember being able to hear the pump running previously.

I have enclosed a couple of photos to give an idea on the construction:-



The pond is sat on a grit sand base as you can see.



Then I in filled a couple of hundred mm with grit sand to secure the pond in place, Insulated with space blanket and added a few layers of bubble wrap to insulate and protect and them built a frame to support the 50mm polystyrene I have used to support the top.



Here it is almost finished, please excuse the net thrown over and bricks to hold it down... It still needs cladding trims and the gravel infill at the base. Other than that You get the idea.

But to get back to the pump noise you can hear it running when stood in front of the pond or if you put your ear to the sleeper. Obviously the pond is raised so you will get more noise than with one 3' underground but the pond is on a solid base and I am more concerned about the Fish.
They may just be hiding because they now have a place to hide behind the plant pot where as the Pondxpert was on the floor, but they have been in two weeks now and seem to spend all of there time there.
Or could the pump noise be causing some distress?

So I guess my question is does that amount of noise sound normal and have I got something to worry about? Don't get me wrong its not really loud but there is an audible hum when you are stood near the pond.
I have tried to speak to Hozelock twice but both times I was on hold for 15 minutes before I gave up.

Thanks in advance

Andy

 

[Dave 54]

Hi Andy talk about de ja vu your pond is similar to our own we went about things in the same way with the insulation wood work etc
Are you from the UK from the design of the house I'd say yes where abouts we are down in Plymouth ?
Please dont be upset by what I have to say my friend but this type of pond requires a bottom drain not a pump that sits in the pond .
You made a very basic mistake mistake but this sort of setup really needs a bottom drain taking the pump away from the pond completely
With a bottom drain we have water going down through the bottom drain with 4" slide Valve which leads into a vortex filter. This then goes through a larger multi bay filter , or in our case seperate vortex style filtration.
The water then comes out of the last filter reduce to a 2" pipe, this then travels through an inline dry pump, which is then pumped through a UV-C , then exits back into pond through a smaller 2" hole cut about half way down the pond.
Sadly it wouldIt mean stripping everything down to brass tacks as they say then starting again.
Cutting a circular 4" hole in the bottom of the pond to take the bottom drain.and the bubbler unit which you supply thou a garden hose plumbed into the bottom drain the pond side of the slide valve via a small pipe .
A brave move but done correctly you'll have years of happy fish keeping
See Photo's :-

Our own pond is 4.5ft in depth 7ft diameter 21 ft circumfrence an holds 1,000 imperial UK , It dont work in Litres could you tell me the gallonage please
I've done this best I can in sequence and will post further photos when you reply

Dave

 

[morewater]

At this point, the pond itself should be least of your worries. Getting an electrical shock while working in a pond is not a good sign.

Get a certified electrician to ensure than your GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) is working or if you even have one.

I won't work anywhere that doesn't have one. It it's absent, I have one installed. Water and hydro don't mix.

Look after it.

Also, portable bottom drains are available.

 

[Dave 54]

Andy if you have koi they tend to grow very large and produce copious amounts of waste which will overwelm the small filer you now have so you would be forever cleaning it .
In our own we have two that are 24+ inches one of them weve had for 27 years we have around 10 koi in all .
They require 40% water changes on a weekly basis we pre filter the water to remove the chlorine with one of these :-

http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=68

They filter thousands of gallons before you replace the cartridges total cost of each about £5.00 and £8.00 for the carbon ones , it saves a fortune in dechlorination liquid all you do is trickle the water through them slowly takes it about four hours to complete.
If you buy the multi bay filter that would sit by the pond you only need to maintain it once a week to clear the vortex , we ran a drainage pipe direct to a drain by the house which works perfectly and keeps you main drain clear when it flushes through , the filter material you would clean around three times a year late spring late summer and late autumn ready for the winter when basically the pond drops bellow that of 19c and the fish stop feeding.
Our insulayion goes that one step further we cover the pond with policarbonate roofing sheets keeping the fish snug at between 7-9c dependant on the weater even ass low as -15c we still have a temperature of 7c in the pond using this method.
All in all if you make the change to bottom drain, its a win win situation and in reality it could be done in a relatively short time .
Please contemplate it, perhaps make a project for the near future giving you chance to lean all about it


Dave

 

[Dave 54]

At this point, the pond itself should be least of your worries. Getting an electrical shock while working in a pond is not a good sign.

Get a certified electrician to ensure than your GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) is working or if you even have one.

I won't work anywhere that doesn't have one. It it's absent, I have one installed. Water and hydro don't mix.

Look after it.

Also, portable bottom drains are available.

Totally agree with you there morewater I was lucky to have a neighbour who was a UK certified electrician do the work for me so I have no fear of electric shock nor do the koi
This is the type of bottom drain you would fit if you choose to go down that route note the bubbler ontop;-

http://www.koicarp.net/pond_construction/bottom_drains/bottom_drains.html

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

Hello Andy and welcome to the forum! Sorry these guys start off your experience by beating you over the head! I like your pond. I can't hear my pond at all but it's 4.5 feet down in my pond which is in the ground. I really couldnt say if your pump is loud or not. Can you post a video of it? Or is it too quiet to hear on video? I was wondering, is that your property on the other side of the fence? Im guessing not. I noticed the all glass room in the background. My parents have one of those at their cottage in Holland Michigan. It's terribly hot in the Summer and extra cold in the Winter. The room looks exactly the same as the one in your pictures. Where are you from?

 

[Dave 54]

Hello Andy and welcome to the forum! Sorry these guys start off your experience by beating you over the head! I like your pond. I can't hear my pond at all but it's 4.5 feet down in my pond which is in the ground. I really couldnt say if your pump is loud or not. Can you post a video of it? Or is it too quiet to hear on video? I was wondering, is that your property on the other side of the fence? Im guessing not. I noticed the all glass room in the background. My parents have one of those at their cottage in Holland Michigan. It's terribly hot in the Summer and extra cold in the Winter. The room looks exactly the same as the one in your pictures. Where are you from?

Hey Hey quit with the beating of the head already Diesilplower who's beating Andy over the head my friend, the pond he has is a spit for our own and the best way to filter this type pond is by bottom drain especially if you keeping koi as you should well know they turn out alot of waste.
All I've done is shown Andy how he can do it the easy way which he could probably achieve over a couple of days just by copying the photo's.
Both our ponds are constructed in the same way with a frame, the pond itself just sits on the ground all weve added to ours is a 4" bottom drain.
As to the rest of our questions just sticking with first responder instruction's, asking the questions Becky herself suggests and has set out in a sticky
Morewater doesnt want to see him electocuted, do you so whats wrong with that ?
Andy if you are from the UK and you want a net you can stretch around the pond where it is held over and up across the pond as well as around the edges by Bungee strap, then you can get a good deal from Norfine nets who will make a net anyway you wish to your specifcations all you do is tighten up the straps both across and around :-

http://www.norfinenets.co.uk/view-product.php?index=338935410

Ours has so far lasted 5 years so they are long lasting too

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

I'm just giving you a hard time Dave54 but in his first post he did say he made a call about the RCD (residual current device) that didn't appear to be working.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm just giving you a hard time Dave54 but in his first post he did say he made a call about the RCD (residual current device) that didn't appear to be working.

My friend I no nothing about electrics I wont even change plugs my reasons two fold .......
I had one belt as a child as well as being thrown a good 10ft across the Quater Master's 's lobby on my training ship, hitting the bulkhead opposite and being found unconsious after turning the lights on on a wet deck (which cant be avioded ),
Ship board electrics are opposite to home electrics and as a result far more dangerous than normal and have been known to kill , the result I wont have anything to do with it at all .
You can ask Val if you wish she changes all the plugs in the home not I.
If you read my post it was a British cetified electrician who rigged up our pond all I do is flick switches on and off when doing maintenance on the pond by RCD I take it you mean a kill switch yes ?

Dave


Dave

 

[Boothy]

Hello guys,

Thanks for your reply's

I will try to go through everything, firstly yes I am in the sunny UK... Up in Bolton just outside of Manchester. I am not looking to overstock the pond and currently I only have one Koi, one orfe and one goldfish so I am hoping the pressurised filter should be ok for now.
I totally get where you are coming from with the bottom drain though but I was hoping to re use the parts I had from the old pond as we have quite a project on in the garden and costs spiral quite quickly. Sadly the old pump put an end to part of that.

With regards to the electrified pond, our house had a complete new consumer unit fitted last year with RCD's fitted on everything so it should of been safe (I am a heating engineer myself so do understand electrics) Needless to say I spoke to them immediately and was not happy with the reply so another electrician is booked to come in the next week or so to check everything out.

So as I am not currently looking to change the set up for the time being the current pump is so noisy you can clearly hear it at the side of the pond, if you hold the 32mm feed pipe from the pump to the filter you can hear and feel it resonate, its this laying on the edge of the pond I think I can hear but I am pretty sure the old one did not do it.

Out of interest how do you go on with leaks on a bottom drain? would it not empty the pond completely?

Once again thank you for your swift replies

Andy

p.s. yes the glass roof is my neighbours conservatory, pretty common up here but an awful idea. too hot in summer and too cold in winter. He's taking it down next year and replacing with a proper extension.

 

[morewater]

Unplug the pump. Take off the housing and check the impeller. It may be that your impeller is out of balance, which will cause the vibration. If it's a magnetic drive pump, check the magnets for any corrosion/rust/chips. Should it be intact, I would suggest placing the pump on a piece of neoprene to dampen any vibrations that may be transmitted to the plastic walls.

It is precisely for the reason you stated above (how do you fix a bottom drain leak), that I prefer to install portable bottom drain set-ups, particularly in dug ponds.

I agree that your current pressure filter should suffice for your current fish load, in fact, it's built for a larger fish load than you have, so feel free to add.

Across the pond, in the Colony, what you call an RCD is called a GCFI. Don't get zapped.

 

[DrCase]

Nice looking pond !!
a piece of foam between the pump and the side wall will help with the sound

 

[Dave 54]

Hello guys,

Thanks for your reply's

I will try to go through everything, firstly yes I am in the sunny UK... Up in Bolton just outside of Manchester. I am not looking to overstock the pond and currently I only have one Koi, one orfe and one goldfish so I am hoping the pressurised filter should be ok for now.
I totally get where you are coming from with the bottom drain though but I was hoping to re use the parts I had from the old pond as we have quite a project on in the garden and costs spiral quite quickly. Sadly the old pump put an end to part of that.

With regards to the electrified pond, our house had a complete new consumer unit fitted last year with RCD's fitted on everything so it should of been safe (I am a heating engineer myself so do understand electrics) Needless to say I spoke to them immediately and was not happy with the reply so another electrician is booked to come in the next week or so to check everything out.

So as I am not currently looking to change the set up for the time being the current pump is so noisy you can clearly hear it at the side of the pond, if you hold the 32mm feed pipe from the pump to the filter you can hear and feel it resonate, its this laying on the edge of the pond I think I can hear but I am pretty sure the old one did not do it.

Out of interest how do you go on with leaks on a bottom drain? would it not empty the pond completely?

Once again thank you for your swift replies

Andy

p.s. yes the glass roof is my neighbours conservatory, pretty common up here but an awful idea. too hot in summer and too cold in winter. He's taking it down next year and replacing with a proper extension.

Aye up Andy weve something in common , I'm from Oldham originally stayed in Plymouth after the Royal Navy interestingly you used to have the Lancashire Fusiliers based in Bolton I believe?
Well one of the Ships I was on was HMS Euryalus a Leander class frigate F15 we where sort of twinned with the regiment through a link from the first world war when HMS Euryalus a cruiser Landed the Lancashire Fusilers at Galaopili where they were cut down in great numbers under heavy artilary fire out of 4,000 men 460 survived I believe .. This is why the Appl i;e the feathers they wore on the berrets where red on top white underneath. It is said it was dipped in the blood of the regiment. This Naval Officers wear their swords hanging at their side in shame ..........
Bottom drain leaks , simply put my friend that if they are correctly done they dont leak .
When you wish to flush your vortex you shut the 4"valve then open the valve on the vortex to drain it.
You then shut the vortex valve and open the bottom drain valve flushing it through, you repeat the action three times , this gives you the 30-40% water change which you top the pond up via the filter I showed you trickling the water back in until filled , this normally takes about 3 hours .
In the mean time you can go about your business doing whatever you wish to do i;e go to the shops watch the match mow the law, etc, etc, etc.
If your worried about the drain being crushed by the pond it wont because of the trench it sits in, and the pond sits snuggly on top the job as I said would take around three days to do because your already finished and it wont take five minutes to dismantle thewooden slats and polystyreene top.
For extra insulation around your space blanket go to your local B&Q they sell recycled plastic loft insulation buy two rolls and wrap it around the pond one atop the other.
I hope this answers your Questions ?

Dave

 

[Boothy]

Thanks again guys! So I managed to get through to hozelock today who confirmed the pump should not sound like this. On their advice I tonight removed the pump, stripped out the impeller, cleaned and replaced. Sadly no different

They said to call back in this case so hopefully they will post out some bits. There did seem to be excessive wobble on the impeller but there are two stabilisers that may stop that when the end bell is back on.
Yes it is magnetic drive btw.

So I will see how I get on tomorrow otherwise it's neoprene insulation... I am still thinking the fish will be able to hear it even if I can't?
They currently spend all of their time hiding behind the pump, I am just worried they are distressed and this is the cause.

Andy

Btw royal fusiliers are from Bury, just down the road

 

[Dave 54]

Thanks again guys! So I managed to get through to hozelock today who confirmed the pump should not sound like this. On their advice I tonight removed the pump, stripped out the impeller, cleaned and replaced. Sadly no different

They said to call back in this case so hopefully they will post out some bits. There did seem to be excessive wobble on the impeller but there are two stabilisers that may stop that when the end bell is back on.
Yes it is magnetic drive btw.

So I will see how I get on tomorrow otherwise it's neoprene insulation... I am still thinking the fish will be able to hear it even if I can't?
They currently spend all of their time hiding behind the pump, I am just worried they are distressed and this is the cause.

Andy

Btw royal fusiliers are from Bury, just down the road

Your right of course I always get two your towns in a muddle hence the ? in my orignal post, but the story is as it stands as near as I can remeber it being the history behind the appl.
Crazy bunch of soldiers the ones seconed to our ship all ended up in trouble for refusng to pay a taxi in Cyprus on a drunken night off from our ship, a rock was thrown which missed the taxi driver and bounced through the window of the police car sent out to sort the argument over the fare out.
Next thing you know a policeman has drawn a firearm on them to arrest them but them being drunk instead of putting their hands up the proceeded to beat the poor hapless police officer to a pulp, first disarming him of his weapon .
Much to say we left Cyprus minus the soldiers who where shipped of to Colchester Military Corrective training centre for punishment that was the last we heard of them .
Its a shame what the government of this country has done with the traditional fusilier regiments, basically reinventing them as the Rifles and disbanding many of them consolodating the rest under the Rifles name, with alott of proud regiments loosing their long regimental history

As to your pump Andy it may well be you have a problem with the wiring to one side of the coil that powers the magnet which is causing the shock and the wobble .
The dry in line ones we use are beasts and they can take a heck of allot of abuse, what bits of K1 getting stuck in them or to them running dry should one of the slide valves have caused one of the filters to run dry because a bit of japanese matting fibre had got caugth in the Valve.
I've gone out one morning to find this had happened the pond water still backed down to the forward edge of the pump to be forced back up into the pond but otherwise running dry .
It was red hot to the touch .
We switched it off cleared the obstruction in the slide valve of the third filter out of the four to stop the leak (it wouldn't drain the pond only that one filter) then an hour later switched it back on again , it always starts again first time.

Dave