The usefulness (or uslessness)of a test kit

crsublette

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...Also... the importance of water mixing is talked about by Ebeling in aquaculture as well by other researchers in wastewater treatment....


...and ya can find those "study citations" on your own time... rather than mine... :censored:


So... if ya believe me or not... or if ya think it is incorrect or I "made up" all of this stuff... whatever... :rolleyes:

.... then no skin off my back. (y)


....that's not going to stop me from sharing what I know and understand at this moment in time... :)


...and I far more appreciate people that want to correct my understanding rather than wanting to just pick apart what I have to say to simply prove (for them self mostly) "how wrong I am"... :bored:


...cause my knowledge and understanding is always growing... (y)


...rather than stuck in a particular agenda.... :bookworm::smug:;)
 
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Meyer Jordan

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...Correct, lack of circulation was the flaw in the MBBR previously talked about...


...it wasn't SSA creating the flaw... cause if it was, then SSA would have been increased so to fix the problem... except this wasn't necessary...

... "retardants" wasn't the flaw... cause if it was, then increased circulation would not have made any difference...

...Hydraulic Rentention Time in the MBBR wasn't the flaw... cause if it was, then change of input/output flow rate... not circulation... would have been the fix...

...Faulty design wasn't the flaw... cause if it was... then an increased circulation would not have changed the faulty design...

You did not mention air flow or was there no air flow to begin with. All true MBBRs have a forced air system that keeps the media bed "moving" preventing the clumping of the filter media. Since you have not mentioned air flow I have to assume that there was none ergo design flaw in the filter. Pressurized bead filter have air blowers as part of the system for just this reason. All the increased water circulation did was break up the clumping that should have been done by air. It did not directly have any effect on reducing the Nitrite level.
Many small ponds (with fish) have no pump or supplemental biofiltration, yet they function well and do not have Nitrite issues. In 20+ years direct involvement with ponds of all types and sizes, I have never seen a Nitrite spike except after extreme weather events that caused loss of power. Aquaculture RAS do not combat Nitrite levels with increased circulation, but with chloride.
Nothing in the scientific literature supports your statement nor is there even a remote reference to it to be found. As usual, I choose scientific research over anecdotal.
 

crsublette

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You did not mention air flow or was there no air flow to begin with. All true MBBRs have a forced air system that keeps the media bed "moving" preventing the clumping of the filter media. Since you have not mentioned air flow I have to assume that there was none ergo design flaw in the filter. Pressurized bead filter have air blowers as part of the system for just this reason.

Airflow (either by diffuser or venturi) driving the water circulation is implied when talking about MBBRs... I thought you would have known this...

...I never stated the mechanism that created the water circulation in the MBBR...

...YOU assumed I was talking about a water pump.

...correct, if the water circulation is proper, there should not be any clumping and improper mixing... that is why increased water circulation fixed that particular problem!


All the increased water circulation did was break up the clumping that should have been done by air. It did not directly have any effect on reducing the Nitrite level.

Water circulation was driving the mixing in the MBBR...

Improper mixing allowed the clumping to form and the rest of the biofilm to not be properly cleaned off (thus conversion efficiency dropped like a rock and disrupted denitrification increased)... also, the mixing action helps to clean the media by the media bumping into each other... This interfered with the bacteria conversion rates as well as allowed a disrupted denitrification process to occur... Thus... the Nitrites increased...

Increase mixing... allowed by water circulation.... broke up the clumps and cleaned off the media... Nitrites fell down...

An anecdotal coincidence I guess...



Many small ponds (with fish) have no pump or supplemental biofiltration, yet they function well and do not have Nitrite issues.

...and I believe ya... and I have actually read of a few on this forum and elsewhere...

...but there is alot more to it .... as to why they do not have any pump nor any supplemental filtration... cause I doubt you are suggesting to most small pond owners that they should just stop using their water pumps and any extra filtration without knowing much more about their situation...

..cause then... either... those small ponds had many and/or mature oxygenating plants and/or the organic presence was not great at all... as well as the fish were either very small and/or not many... and the fish never reproduced like crazy and/or ya removed fish as they populated... figure not talking about mosquito nor rosey red minnow fish...

I am quite aware of the planted aquaria hobby as well as Dr. Barr and Diana Walstad... and why no water pumps nor supplemental biofiltration would ever be needed if everything else is properly controlled... I think this would applied to a small pond as well.... just as Mitch was experimenting with...

...and to requote what I wrote before...

Sure, eventually, with very low or zero water mixing, the microbes will eventually receive some of these pollutants to "clean"... I did not suggest this would not eventually happen without water mixing..



In 20+ years direct involvement with ponds of all types and sizes, I have never seen a Nitrite spike except after extreme weather events that caused loss of power.

BINGO! ... cause... loss of power means loss of water circulation (whether driven by pump or aeration)... thus... Nitrite spike!! ... this is not rocket science...

...since you mentioned "Nitrite spike" and "loss of power" in same sentence, I assume water and/or air pumps were involved...

...if equipment failure did not allow the Nitrite spike to occur... then most likely either a sudden water chemistry change and/or contaminants...


Aquaculture RAS do not combat Nitrite levels with increased circulation, but with chloride.

Yes, I am quite aware of this as well as the ratio of chloride to nitrite they utilize... Ya can find posts from about 3 years ago of me talking about using chloride to combat Nitrite, but this is not a fix.

...I never meant that increased circulation fixes ALL.... I understand why you would want to believe that of me.... I appreciate you giving me a chance to clarify this...

...which is why I wrote a few posts ago (post#65), as requoted below...

If Nitrites every should increase in a water system... then increasing water circulation is one of the best things to do along with maybe some other things as well as addressing the problem's source...


Sorry, increasing water circulation is one potential fix whenever Nitrites spikes occur... Of course, it is not the ONLY fix...


...and I learned this from simply reading those individuals whom do this
 
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crsublette

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@Meyer Jordan , I appreciate you allowing me to clarify what I wrote...


Obviously... I need to write more like a Lawyer so to make sure I do not get the wrath of Meyer on my butt... sheesh... feels like Waterbug incarnate...


Of course, you can create instances of when zero equipment whatsoever is needed... and in these instances... you would never experience any type of pollutant spike, either ammonia nor nitrite... I am not talking about these instances... Does that mean all of us small pond owners should just start using zero equipment? I doubt that is the point you are making...

...which I actually entirely understand the point you are making... You are saying, "Hey, I basically have stagnant water... Look.. No Nitrite spike." ... and I am using "stagnant" in the context of meaning "no significant water flow"...but it is really not that simple... you likely also have either algae or plants or something else going on... in lieu with proper fish biomass... that allows you to never, ever have any ammonia nor nitrite spikes whatsoever... in essence... those ponds are truly pure "eco" ponds...
 
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crsublette

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@Meyer Jordan , I grant you the point that water circulation in a pond is not a necessity and possible to not have any Nitrite spikes in this situation... if the pond is properly constructed and managed so to not need any water circulation...


...I swear I think I wrote something similar to this earlier.. but anyways... just in case I didn't... there ya go... (y)
 
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crsublette

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Nothing in the scientific literature supports your statement nor is there even a remote reference to it to be found. As usual, I choose scientific research over anecdotal.

Scientific literature states water circulation does NOT help an aquatic system to reduce Nitrite, nor even Ammonia in the system... :confused:

I must have missed reading the post where ya hyperlinked the literature that stated otherwise...:(


I guess you believe Ebeling talking about "irrotational zones" and proper mixing to aid an aquatic system is only applicable to "mono-culture" systems...and this same natural occurrence of fluid dynamics is never witnessed in any system outside of "mono-culture" aquatic systems... especially not in natural ponds nor lakes.
 
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Meyer Jordan

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I see no value in continuing this line of discussion as it is apparent that you will continue to grasp at straws to prove a point that can not be proven. That point being, as per your original statement...Increased water circulation will reduce Nitrite levels. Enough has been presented for the other members of this Forum to make their own judgement, which for me, is what postings in the Forum are all about.
Cheers!
 

crsublette

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I see no value in continuing this line of discussion as it is apparent that you will continue to grasp at straws to prove a point that can not be proven. That point being, as per your original statement...Increased water circulation will reduce Nitrite levels. Enough has been presented for the other members of this Forum to make their own judgement, which for me, is what postings in the Forum are all about.
Cheers!

As I said before...

if ya believe me or not... or if ya think it is incorrect or I "made up" all of this stuff... whatever... :rolleyes:

.... then no skin off my back. (y)

Maybe next time... since you are all about literature...

....then actually provide some literature... that proves your point of argument...

...such as in this case that... Water circulation has zero impact in helping to reduce such things, like Nitrite...


Maybe think about that next time when ya find my posts.... so incredibly disturbing... to you...
 
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Sorry, that's just a cop-out... Of course a negative can proven, by simply disproving the positive. It is just that people normally think in the positive.. This doesn't mean a negative can't be proven.

Give the man from Texasa cigar! What you are describing is a null hypothesis
null-hypothesis



Noun
(plural null hypotheses)

  1. (statistics) A hypothesis set up to be nullified or refuted in order to support an alternative hypothesis. When used, the null hypothesis is presumed true until statistical evidence in the form of a hypothesis test indicates otherwise. Therefore, the null and the alternative hypothesis must be mutually exclusive and exhaustive.
 

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