Why are my fish dying this winter, but never before?

[Waterbug]

I don't believe I could ever tell by a few text posts what does and doesn't cause something. Many of these things are beyond me even when I'm on site or even when it's my pond and I know the complete history. The best I can do is suggest a few things to research further.

I think it's a logic trap to focus too much on what a poster posts. Those are all going to be things the poster already knows something about. Given those dozen options one has to be picked as "the cause". But that discounts the dozens of things the poster doesn't know about and therefore never mentioned. It discounts "cure" that have already been thrown at the fish which aren't mentioned because why would a person mention "good" things? They couldn't possibly have caused any problem.

 

[callingcolleen1]

My advice is to keep everything in accordance with nature, or as close as possible. I keep some of my pumps running all winter at a reduced flow rate to simulate a natural reduced winter flow. I also strongly advise that the heater be placed where there is good flow of water, this will ensure the water is evenly heated and that will keep the ice down much much more that just a heater with no water circulating.
Most people that I know who lost their fish have had little or no water circulation at all, most of the winter. I go into panic mode if the power shuts off and my pumps quit, more so than if just the heater dies. I believe that the water will still go stale, no matter how clean your pond may appear to be, and a very clean pond is sometimes worse as there is nothing living under the ice, but algae, and if you have no algae then there is not much else alive but the fish.
Algae is the one of the very few plants that will grow all winter under the ice and provide food for the fish. The fish will eat the algae during warm spells over the winter. In the summer and fall their is no algae in my ponds as the large plants starve it out, but it does grow very well under the ice. If you cover your pond, the sun will be blocked out and that is worse yet, as the algae will die or turn to deadly blue or black toxic algae. Only green algae is good.
I also never take my pond apart and clean it, and I never move the fish unless it is very necessary. I think moving the fish can stress them out needless in the fall and further weaken them. I do clean the filters well before the big freeze up to ensure the pumps will not get clogged up over winter. My filters are all before the pump, and not the crappy filter that most pumps come with, but a big heavy duty filter that can run good all winter.
Each of my three ponds have large sedges and lots of plants like big bunches of hornwort that the fish can feel safe and hide deep in the plants during the coldest spells.
I also feed the fish a high fat super fresh puppy chow that is grain free. I believe it is a very good diet and the extra fat will help the fish winter better.
Now that spring is here, I have cleaned all the filters good and increased the water flow with extra pumps, to simulate a natural spring runoff. This cleans the bottom of the pond nice and what "gunk" that was missed was netted out last week.

I have been doing this for 22 years now and I have gone thru some wicked winters in the past with minis 40 degree tempertures for sometimes a week or more at a time, and fish do fine with my method. I hope this is of some future help.....

Pictures shot just yesterday... last picture from this morning, ice was back!

 

[callingcolleen1]

The strange thing is all her goldfish came through it was only her koi that succumed, each the same wat with all but the very top of their gills still red the rest grey and lifeless, as soon as the water warmed up they died.I suggested we move them indoors during the winter months filters and all which she did, they now over winter in her husbands work place at 11-12c, since then she has not lost one koi.Was she at fault:- no she knew what she was doingThings that came to mind KHV :- no too coldSVC :- no wild carp in pond to infect them so that was a noWe looked into gill flukes:- that was a no.We also looked into sticky gills:- again no.Water perameters :- no all came through as okwhich brings us neatly back to square one again the cold -24c with a windchill of -54c reported at that time......The conclusion the intense cold had to be frying their gills but why did the goldfish come through un affected was it because they were smaller?.Size was another thing they were all mature koi and around the 22" mark but the pond was big enough to to keep the koi in, maybe it was to do with the size of these koi: - Possibility?Could it have been something to do with shock waves created during the hacking of the ice each day with that axe (only way to keep it open):- possibility but why then didnt it also happen to the goldfish?In reality we went over everything we could possibly think of and drew negatives each and every timergrdsDave

Dear Dave...
If the large fish died first, then it is due to poor water conditions and low oxygen, as the larger fish need more oxygen than the smaller fish and hence they are affected first.
The burnt gills are because the fish were breathing in toxic ammonia and other gases built up under the ice.
Hacking and beating the ice never helps....

 

[Dave 54]

No sorry your wrong there I'm afraid, we went through everything to do with that pond and it wasn't the water at fault.
Cold was the killer here I'm afraid put it this way since we got them indoors over wintering them at 11.c she has'nt had one loss since.
You have to remember to that koi go torpid during the winter shutting down to a virtual standstill .
At 0.c sleeping sickness starts to take effect and if not acted upon is a killer you aslo have to remember that at 2c they are nearer to being dead than alive.
-24c with a wndchill 0f -54c was quite simply far to much for her koi to take hacking through the ice though not recomended was the only optopn open to her because her heater wasnt man enough to do the jobat such very low temperatures.

rgrds

Dave

 

[callingcolleen1]

I have to disagree, since she got them inside they are not suffocating under a thick block of solid ice! My Koi fish have been outside in those same temperatures over the many many years and I have never seen this sleeping sickness that you speak off. I leave my pumps running all winter and that makes the water even colder, but it allows the gasses to escape and oxygen to get in as flowing water keeps holes open in the ice with the 1500w heater, no matter how cold. I have had many cold days in the past, you just have to Google my weather to see the extreme low temperatures we have had in the past winters.

Dave, no disrespect, but it is just hard for me to believe that there is any such thing as "sleeping sickness" with koi fish as I have never seen it and I have left my KOI outside for 22 winters now, and you have never left your fish in such extreme temperatures! My water temperature was barely 31 degrees all winter and according to you my fish should be dead, but they are not?

I can tell you that the large fish do require much much more oxygen than the small fish, and if this sleeping sickness existed then all the fish would be affected, not just the largest fish!

 

[Dave 54]

I have to disagree, since she got them inside they are not suffocating under a thick block of solid ice! My Koi fish have been outside in those same temperatures over the many many years and I have never seen this sleeping sickness that you speak off. I leave my pumps running all winter and that makes the water even colder, but it allows the gasses to escape and oxygen to get in as flowing water keeps holes open in the ice with the 1500w heater, no matter how cold. I have had many cold days in the past, you just have to Google my weather to see the extreme low temperatures we have had in the past winters.

Dave, no disrespect, but it is just hard for me to believe that there is any such thing as "sleeping sickness" with koi fish as I have never seen it and I have left my KOI outside for 22 winters now, and you have never left your fish in such extreme temperatures! My water temperature was barely 31 degrees all winter and according to you my fish should be dead, but they are not?

I can tell you that the large fish do require much much more oxygen than the small fish, and if this sleeping sickness existed then all the fish would be affected, not just the largest fish!

it is a virus known in Japan since about 1960 that effects mostly fry and young koi up to the age of 2 years,.
It is killed by doing a salt treatment and raising the water temperature up to around the 25-30c mark .
Some people believe it is a herpes virus of some sort ..
I've only ever seen it once myself in a members pond open to the elements in our worst winter going .
I first came across reference to this in the Interpet Book entitled Koi Health by Keith Holmes and TonyPitham. ISBN 1842860992 page 129
As the temperature goes down to 14c it effects the koi's immune system as it becomes less efficient
At Temperatures lower than 10c the koi has virtually shut down this is the time that parasites and bacteria are still active.
More trouble is caused as many treatments dont work at lower temperatures.
In addition to this as the temperature drops the koi's metabolism slows down thus its need for food decresess the result of this means your koi is weakend further as the water cools still further the koi become dormant sitting on the ponds nottom and pressure sores can develope due to inactivity .
Younger koi up to around the 2 year mark will appear as they are dead lying on theirs sides on the bottom or simply floating on their sides and will only move if probed by a net, this makes them highly suseptable to infections etc , the condition is known as sleeping sickness .
If they come down with it it is recomended you start to raise the ponds temperature rapidley by 3-4c every day adding salt at 13lb to every 220 gallons Imperial .
I hope this has helped and can only suggest if your at the same temperature as our friend then you must be doing something completely different to her .
Can you describe in detail what you are doing differently to her which you have to be?


rgrds


Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Further this topic as it is bugging us how you keep your koi alive when our friend seems not to be able too.
Did I read a while ago that your using some kind of cattle heater, am I correct ?
If so whats the difference between that and the small heater she had on her pond ?
Val has entered into this discussion pointing out something we both missed i;e that though we live in geometrically speaking the same area as another person doesnt mean we are at the exact same temperature.
Take us for instance we have a temperature reading of 14c heated yet our outside temperature is at 10.c , whilst other members dependant on where they in our area taking in elevation of our property to others can be at a far lower temperature i;e one member is still reporting they have a pond temperature of 5.c
Take the heater off our pond would drop us down by 4.c to 10.c which is a whole 5.c higher than the next person living at a higher elevation to us whilst others are reporting differing temperatures but all in the same geographical area .
Plymouth is a little like Rome i;e built on hills giving us a unique perspective on differing weather in one place to that of another.
I've even left our home before in rain traveled 2 miles and had sunshine whilst my area had rain .
Then where I am has been hit by that rain whilst where we live is in brilliant sunshine.
So you see factoring in elevation heater used on the pond etc, we begin to see differences however until you come back to me with what you are heating the pond with I cannot comment as to how great a difference in a ponds condition your going to be looking at.


rgrds

Dave

 

[callingcolleen1]

I use a 1500 watt floating Cattle heater only when the outside temperature is below minus 10 C and large amount of ice on pond, covering about 80% of pond. The 1500 watt cattle heater is meant only for small pools of about 100 gallons, but it works for all three connecting ponds of over 3500 gallons of water. It would not work as effective if the water was NOT flowing, so I keep the water flowing ALL winter. The water is always very very cold, ICE cold, ALL winter and barely above zero C even at the bottom of the three foot deep ponds. I have never concerned myself with the water temperature, which is not of concern in my opinion, as my fish have all been very very fine, even with tempertures of minus 45c plus wind chill.

My first concern is that the pumps NEVER stop running, cause then the ice would get very very thick and the heater would only do the on pond, as my three ponds are all connected with small streams of running water. If you do not have running water in front of the heater, the heater will only keep the water warm around the small hole in the ice. If you keep the water running, at "natural" reduced winter rate of flow, in front on the heater, the heater will keep a larger hole open in several areas of the ponds, as the heater will heat "all" the water much more effective, than just a small area around the heater. It is more important to have the water "evenly heated" than "hot and cold" spots as this is not good for fish, neither is it good to have the whole pond completely covered with thick ice, and only one small small hole, as the hole in the picture you posted.

During long cold winter spells, the ponds can get thick ice, several inches of ice in some areas of the ponds, but the ponds never completely freeze over as the running water in front of the heater keeps larger open holes in several different areas of all three ponds. If you look at aournd creek here in town the water never stops flowing, and it can appear to be completely frozen over during the coldest of winters, but is is not, you will always find "breather holes" which can be small, but they manage to stay open all winter, because THE WATER is RUNNING UNDER the ICE, non stop, ALL winter long, similar to my ponds. The running water under the ice keeps the water fresh and clean and free of toxic gases, which is what really kills most fish all winter, not the ice cold water. Never have I heard of the fish dying in the creeks or river over the winter naturally, around here, but we do have some smaller lakes that are not that deep, maybe 10 feet deep lakes here on the Prairies, and some winter there are natural kill die offs from the toxic gases that build up under water that is NOT FLOWING!

As you can see, it is all about the flowing water, that is the first and foremost concern of mine, not how cold the water is, as cold water has NEVER killed my fish, and my water was much much colder than anybodys water here in this forum all winter. Even the guys further north that had much larger ponds than me, their actual water tempertures were several degrees warmer than mine, as they never had flowing water all winter and much thicker ice, although even with their warmer temperatures, I had a bad feeling about their ponds BECAUSE the WATER was NOT RUNNING.....

 

[callingcolleen1]

Remember... I have been wintering my ponds very succussfully for over 22 years now, but I should also mention that my filters are all IN THE WATER before the pumps. Some people have had problems with the external filters and hard wired plumming freezing up. My pumps and filters are in the water and I just use the flexable rubber hoses that are easy to get at should the power go out and the hoses freeze up. My hoses have never froze as the water flows fast enough threw the hoses that it does not freeze. If your tubes are too large and the water does not flow fast enough, then they could freeze. I also do not have any fancy external Skimmers either, simple is best when wintering, and if you have external filters and Skimmers, you may consider shutting those down as they could have problems and hook a "winter pumps and filter" up so that you have good water movement in front of the heater. I do also have a spare "real" 1200 watt pond heater, but I have not really tested it out yet, maybe next year, we will see, as it is less watts.... I hope I have been of some help!

Some pictures of the open holes from this past winter ....

 

[Dave 54]

you may have just cracked the case there I'll ask her in my next email if her pipes where out of the water I know she uses barrel filters nowadays as she takes them indoors with the koi .
Then rig's it up to her two large circular vats which the koi and goldfish go into.
I know at the moment its still pretty cold where shes at so they will still be indoors at the moment/

rgrds

Dave