Poorly Koi Carp

[Nukawin]

Hey everyone, I'd like some help with a predicament.

I live in an estate and currently my pond is 3ft wide, 6ft long, and 4ft deep. It houses 19 Fish, a mix of Goldfish and Koi, all of which have been doing great and the pond has been running fine for around 5+ years now, me and my dad built it together. We'd have a way bigger pond if we didn't have a small garden...

Anyway. One of our Koi, has recently become lethargic, and he's lost interest in food. He hangs around the top of the pond quite often, but when approached or touched he'll swim away. His fins are not tucked against his body, so his symptoms are confusing me.

I managed to catch him bare-handed tonight (he did not put up much of a struggle) and currently have him separated in a basin in my room (close monitoring)... I want to help him but I need to find out what's going on in order to treat him..

ATM he is just floating at the top of the water, tho the odd time he'll take a small swim around the basin. He appears fine but the recent behaviour is new and worrying, none of my other fish are doing this, and they're all very keen feeders! It's just this one that's lost interest...

Another thing to note is, I didn't noticed until a couple of years after buying him, that, he's been born with a deformity. His mouth is 'bent'(?) to the left side abit. He's always had this and has never had problems feeding with it so we just let him be. He is a Grey Koi with a white belly (almost like a great white shark!) and he measures roughly around 7''.

Ultimately, I want to find out whats going on, and how can I fix it. The only two symptoms are he's lethargic and not interested in feeding. I don't want to loose this guy so any advice would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[sissy]

welcome and wow that is a lot of fish for that small an area .Did you test your water and what kind of filter .Shade or sun pond temps . of water .

 

[Nukawin]

Ok so how big would you recommend for that many fish? We're looking at a possible house move (depends on what the landlord has planned for the property, we're awaiting feedback)...

I've been looking for my test kit and unfortunately haven't been able to find it yet. Tho today I decided to do a 70% water change (the water was very very green so I suspected ammonia/nitrate levels were high), and I cleaned out the filter. Our filtration has earth worms in it (I have NO IDEA how they got there) and I read they were a sign of a healthy pond? Can you clarify that? Our filtration system is a Laguna PowerFlo 4500 with a UV Light connected. We've had no problems with it, the pond, or the fish, over the years it's been running. If anything the only problems we've had are cats and the Sun (Algae), thankfully with the grid on top the cats haven't managed to get any of our fish (it doesn't stop them trying tho!)

Also, honestly, I have no idea on the temps of the pond. Tho all our other fish seem 100%, very active, very food-orientated and generally just seem happy, it's just the one I currently separated that's out of character.

 

[sissy]

Those worms help the filter work ,I don't like them myself but they are harmless .I use API test kit in liquid
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:56882]I use quilt batting to pick up the fine algae cells but actually algae really does not harm fish and it is the test kit that will really help you figure it all out .Plants help also in filtering the water ,but side effect is plants give off oxygen during the day but use it up at night .Is your water well water .I don't really like pressure filters they really don't work that well .A home made filter is much better .Not sure what you can find where you live .Koi produce a lot more waste and need a lot of filtering to get rid of it .

 

[Nukawin]

I'm not phased about the worms being in the filter, if they're a good sign then I'm happy enough lol, I just have no idea how they got there, and for a while I wasn't sure why they were there either!

That is the test kit I own, I just haven't found it yet. I stored it away in a box and haven't been able to remember which box it was...

And update on the fish... My searches all pointed to a possible parasite infection, for precautions I've given him a small dose of anti-parasite, but now he's started twitching and appears to be holding his breath???

 

[Nukawin]

Okay, so I freaked out at his sudden new behaviour and did an ''emergency water change''. While I was changing the water he was moved to the bathroom sink for a few moments until the basin had enough water for him to go back into it.

Here's some photos I got of him;

http://31.media.tumblr.com/5a7e2a08ccbb85be17e87796f09bcf0e/tumblr_mrqvs02siz1rsdkgzo1_1280.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/3579d74767c706107988dad581a52236/tumblr_mrqvs02siz1rsdkgzo2_1280.jpg
http://31.media.tumblr.com/a80787f2ac5e7374aef3faceb2e7a0cb/tumblr_mrqvs02siz1rsdkgzo3_1280.jpg

I got to be honest and say I feel I'm not getting much help from the forum, I'm getting more questions than I am answers when I've already explained that the problem is with just one fish, and all my other fish are completely fine...

 

[capewind]

I got to be honest and say I feel I'm not getting much help from the forum, I'm getting more questions than I am answers when I've already explained that the problem is with just one fish, and all my other fish are completely fine...

I dont mean to sound negative, but you need to understand that none of us are THERE with you, and your poor fish. Since your fish is unable to speak to us and tell us what is wrong in his or her own words, it is through a series of questions we are able to figure out what is going on. If I am to go from your picture, the only thing I can say is this kid hasnt been eating well for quite some time, as it is very thin. It *MAY* be your ONLY sick fish, or it *MAY* just be the first to show symptoms. The most common reason for a sick fish is poor water quality, thus any questions relating to your water. ONCE that has been proven to be okay, THROUGH TESTING, then we can move on to OTHER symptoms.

As a side note, you say your pond has a UV, yet the water is "very very green" ... that in itself suggests an issue. When was the last time you changed the bulb?

 

[Nukawin]

Suddenly this topic is pretty pointless now, as the fish just died in my hands tonight.

My dad called me down stairs to tell me the fish was on it's side and I went to try and help it, I was trying to coax it to its proper position and, well it's impossible for me to describe, but I felt something that brought back some painful memories, in short last year I had to make the agonising decision to have my German Shepherd euthanized after she became terminally ill, I held her when the vets gave her the injection, as crazy as it might sound to you, I literally felt her soul leave her body,

I felt the exact same thing when I held this Koi, and before I realised it, he was dead. I'm burying him tomorrow, and currently I'm sobbing over the whole ordeal, loosing the fish, and being reminded of what I felt when I lost my best friend..

 

[Nukawin]

Hey again, I want to apologise for my earlier behaviour. I was scared for this fish, I didn't want to loose him and I was panicking... I wanted urgent help but I understand now that to get to the bottom of something all other possibilities must be ruled out, and I'm sorry that I appeared to not consider those, I was just wanting him to get better...

At least he isn't suffering any more...

 

[sissy]

how old is your uv bulb as I understand on here even though you think they are good they may not be .So very sorry about loosing him and just remember now you must keep an eye on the other fish .I also went through loosing to of my beloved dogs and always blame my self for moving here because they were so healthy in NJ and here one got cancer and the other one suffered kidney failure .I think most people have been through a lose and no matter what it is hard to live with .

 

[Dave 54]

Hey again, I want to apologise for my earlier behaviour. I was scared for this fish, I didn't want to loose him and I was panicking... I wanted urgent help but I understand now that to get to the bottom of something all other possibilities must be ruled out, and I'm sorry that I appeared to not consider those, I was just wanting him to get better...

At least he isn't suffering any more...

Sadly we have to ask questions to find out everything about your pond water perameters mintenance routines water changes etc to get an ideaa of the conditions your fish live in to give us a clue exctly what may be wrong with your koi (so sad that he died before we could get ab answer to all our questions).
We have been keeping for 27 years and have two fish of that age plus others right the way down frmteens to just bought this year.
I'm sorry that he died but to time differences We live in Plymouth UK that I couldnt have seen this thread sooner but I doubt I could have helped as he sounded too far gone,
But if you wish to learn your in the right place as there are koi keepers including ourselves who are more than willing to teach you with between us we have years of experiance .
Looking athe photo's of your fish I note how thin this guy is which could point to a number of problems from a twisted intestinal tract through to an internal bacterial problem which no fault to you are very hard to diagnose on your own .
Catching him with your bare hands points to just how farhe was gone, as they would never normally do this it should be impossible to catch them without a net.
That should speak volumes to you ...........
Otherwise from what Ican see it was in good condition which you can pat yourself on the back for and it says your other koi are in imaculate condition.
Please tell me do you hae any books on koi and if so which are they I'll need Authors and ISBN numbers , if you havent its high time you bought some in Amazon US sells them at quite resonable prices , I recomend The Interpet Manuel of Koi Health as your first book to buy , why ? because it is a very well put together book that teaches from th novice upwards about every aspect of koi health it is also one of my bibles which I've been refaring to for many years over aspects of my own koi .
We did a thread on a recomended reading list of Fish/koi books and fish/koi health books please feel free to use that list to buy in books that in the future will help both you and your Dad.
We hope to see you stay wiith the forum and through that grow in your understanding of koi .
If ever in doubt do a large water change . words spoken by a good friend of mine.

rgrds

Dave

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Ok so how big would you recommend for that many fish? We're looking at a possible house move (depends on what the landlord has planned for the property, we're awaiting feedback)...

I've been looking for my test kit and unfortunately haven't been able to find it yet. Tho today I decided to do a 70% water change (the water was very very green so I suspected ammonia/nitrate levels were high), and I cleaned out the filter. Our filtration has earth worms in it (I have NO IDEA how they got there) and I read they were a sign of a healthy pond? Can you clarify that? Our filtration system is a Laguna PowerFlo 4500 with a UV Light connected. We've had no problems with it, the pond, or the fish, over the years it's been running. If anything the only problems we've had are cats and the Sun (Algae), thankfully with the grid on top the cats haven't managed to get any of our fish (it doesn't stop them trying tho!)

Also, honestly, I have no idea on the temps of the pond. Tho all our other fish seem 100%, very active, very food-orientated and generally just seem happy, it's just the one I currently separated that's out of character.

You seem to have a lot of emotional attachment to your fish, and that's fine, except that by reading your post you don't seem to know very much about taking care of them. I'd suggest you either figure out how to detach yourself emotionally from your fish, or get a better understanding of how to care for them.
Here are a few things you should know as a "concerned" koi keeper.
You should be testing your pond water regularly, especially at the first sign of trouble, and especially with high fish loads.
A 70% water change is not a good idea. 10-20% is what is recommended.
Green water (free floating suspended algae) will help reduce ammonia levels, it is not a symptom that your levels are high.
UV lights are only good for about one year of continuous use. They will continue to emit visible light for a long time after that, but not the necessary UV rays.
It's really important to have some idea what the temp of your pond water is.

Also I see you just joined this forum, only after your fish got sick. The old saying "Too little, Too late" applies here. There are some people out there who keep ponds and aren't nearly as emotionally attached to their fish as you seem to be. They are probably in a better position to not be active in forums or reading books about koi husbandry, since they'd probably shrug off loosing a fish or two, or maybe all their fish.
One thing I can tell you for sure, all your fish will eventually die,,, they all eventually die sooner or later. But if you are really concerned about your fish, and want them to live long healthy lives, I'd seriously consider reading as much as you can on the subject and maybe stay active in some koi forums, because you'll stand a much better chance of (proactively) prolonging the lifespan of your fishy pets.

 

[Nukawin]

I'm sorry but asking me to detach myself emotionally from my animals is something I refuse to do... I will do what I can to improve their living conditions as their happiness means everything to me but I will not stop loving them as much as I do.

Honestly, I thought we were doing everything right. This is our first pond and we've had no real issues with our fish for the last 5 years, they all ate, they all survived the winters... The only problem we've really had was algae problems. Every few months we'd take all the fish out (and since they're quite large we put them in the bath tub temporarily) and we'd wash the pond down to get rid of the algae. This was a yearly routine and honestly we had NO problems with our fish.. But you guys are probably right, we don't know everything there is to keeping koi, we just went by the intel we were given by other Koi owners, we followed their advice and since everything went fine, up until now, we thought we were doing it right.

As I mentioned earlier, we're looking as a possible house move. It depends on the landlord and we're awaiting feedback, but if we get the house, one of my major plans is to create a bigger pond for my fish. There is more ground around this house, so we have more room to make a wider, deeper pond. Where we are currently living, our garden isn't big enough for a bigger pond, we're trying to work with the space we have but I promise you if we get this house we'll defiantly get a bigger pond.

Our pond was built by me and dad. The UV light is only several months old, but last night it blew the fuse and has stopped working, we're going to be examining it today to find out what's going on and why it suddenly broke. If I don't find the pond test kit tonight I'll be buying a whole new one. As for books on Koi keeping, I admit that I don't have any, but as I've stated, I thought we were doing everything right. I'll make sure to acquire some books now tho.

Today, I looked at our remaining fish and again they all seem fine and happy... Since the water change the pond has been a lot more clear, and the fish were very active.

I'd like to try and become a regular member of the forum, I just don't want to feel like I'm being ridiculed for doing what I thought was right... I will defiantly try to improve things, but I genuinely thought we had been doing things right prior to loosing this fish...

Here is some photos of our set up (we were cleaning the pond out at the time so the fish spent their time in the bath tub until the pond was ready for them)

The Pond
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0028_zps41606e7e.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0026_zps30baf801.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0027_zpsaf2e3a6a.jpg

The Fish (including the one I recently lost)
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0031_zps5014dd1d.jpg

This one is my sisters fish, she won him at a fair and he used to be tiny
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0024_zps44840ceb.jpg

This one is mine, she used to be red and white but lost all her colours when she lived in an aquarium, she eventually got too big for it and now lives in the pond (shes been living there for as long as we've had the pond). Her name is Paige
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0025_zps4c97cedb.jpg

This is my dads japanese koi, also our biggest, and I nick name him jaws because he reminds me of the shark.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0022_zps644866e3.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0020_zpsa3f95c46.jpg

Some of our other fish
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0019_zps8a9e1f20.jpg

And our second biggest
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/userpen/DSCN0014_zps04fa1e6e.jpg

They all used to be a whole lot smaller when we first started with the pond. I have considered giving the bigger ones a new home but I would prefer to find a very good home for them and I'm pretty sure some people would not appreciate it if I demanded to see their pond set up just to make sure my fish are going to a good home...

But yeah... I want whats best for my fish, as with all my animals, and I want to try and help improve their quality of life. They seem happy now but if I can improve life more for them, then I will do my best.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I'm sorry but asking me to detach myself emotionally from my animals is something I refuse to do... I will do what I can to improve their living conditions as their happiness means everything to me but I will not stop loving them as much as I do.

Honestly, I thought we were doing everything right. This is our first pond and we've had no real issues with our fish for the last 5 years, they all ate, they all survived the winters... The only problem we've really had was algae problems. Every few months we'd take all the fish out (and since they're quite large we put them in the bath tub temporarily) and we'd wash the pond down to get rid of the algae. This was a yearly routine and honestly we had NO problems with our fish.. But you guys are probably right, we don't know everything there is to keeping koi, we just went by the intel we were given by other Koi owners, we followed their advice and since everything went fine, up until now, we thought we were doing it right.

As I mentioned earlier, we're looking as a possible house move. It depends on the landlord and we're awaiting feedback, but if we get the house, one of my major plans is to create a bigger pond for my fish. There is more ground around this house, so we have more room to make a wider, deeper pond. Where we are currently living, our garden isn't big enough for a bigger pond, we're trying to work with the space we have but I promise you if we get this house we'll defiantly get a bigger pond.

Our pond was built by me and dad. The UV light is only several months old, but last night it blew the fuse and has stopped working, we're going to be examining it today to find out what's going on and why it suddenly broke. If I don't find the pond test kit tonight I'll be buying a whole new one. As for books on Koi keeping, I admit that I don't have any, but as I've stated, I thought we were doing everything right. I'll make sure to acquire some books now tho.

Today, I looked at our remaining fish and again they all seem fine and happy... Since the water change the pond has been a lot more clear, and the fish were very active.

I'd like to try and become a regular member of the forum, I just don't want to feel like I'm being ridiculed for doing what I thought was right... I will defiantly try to improve things, but I genuinely thought we had been doing things right prior to loosing this fish...



But yeah... I want whats best for my fish, as with all my animals, and I want to try and help improve their quality of life. They seem happy now but if I can improve life more for them, then I will do my best.

Hi Nuawin, I can assure you that nobody is trying to ridicule you, and having an emotional attachment to your fish is normal and healthy. I just wanted to point out some obvious observations I saw in your posts. Like the fact that you just joined this forum (more on that later), and that you don't know where your water test kit is, etc...
It's clear you love your fish and want them to survive. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with that. There are other koi keeper people who may not have quite the emotional investment in their fish, but still have a strong desire to see them be as healthy as possible. Breeders for instance, they likely can't take the time to name their fish, but they certainly want them to be healthy because they likely have a large monetary investment. And then there are others who see koi as just something to decorate their pond or water feature, and don't have much of an investment at all monetarily or emotional.
The best thing you can do for your fish is learn about water quality. There are a lot of people with ponds who judge their water quality by looking at it, they believe that if the water is clear then it must be good. This is a big mistake. Your fish are totally dependent on the small body of water you provide for them, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong in that contained environment, and often you can't tell what's going wrong just by looking at it. That's why it's so important to test the water quality regularly and do your best to understand what's going on and why.
It could be your water is fine and your fish had some genetic defect that it died from and there was nothing you could have done, but the fact remains that you don't know for sure what was going on with your water quality, and you don't know where your test kit it is. Of course testing your water won't be of any use unless you really understand what sort of parameters you want to achieve, and in most cases stability is the goal your looking for. To know if your water is "stable" you have to check it regularly, and to check it regularly you have to know where your test kit is.
Anyway, I rarely get involved in threads like this, they are all too common. Someone with a backyard pond has a fish that gets sick and they start looking online for answers and join a forum to ask for help. In most cases it's too late for anybody to help even if they could have. Inevitably the person looking for help is not already a member of any forum otherwise why would they join a new forum to ask for help? What it tells me is they probably haven't been taking a very proactive role in learning how to care for their fish.
There are a lot of forums out there concerning koi and fish care, this forum has some knowledgeable members, but even most of them are members of other forums where there are even more knowledgeable people. I'd advice you to seek them out and ask a lot of questions about your fish and your pond and most importantly your water. You may get some conflicting advice, but in the long run you'll gain more knowledge and end up taking a more proactive role in caring for the fish you obviously have a strong emotional investment in.

 

[Nukawin]

I tried joining a Koi forum before and my request was ignored. I was a member of Pet Forums.co.uk for a while too, but after the death of my dog, I left.

I did join to try and get help for my Koi, but I was too late. I want to avoid loosing anymore so I'll stick around and try to learn much more than what I already know.