DIY hybrid sediment settling chamber/vortex filter - "Muck Dropper"

[Catfishnut]

Catfishnut .I too am more pictorial ,the conical shaped bottom ,blurs my image of bottom plates configuration ,of pipes ,filter bags and actual perimeter height space.
SS conical shape to 18" 19" w overlap ,I assume you planning angular cut out of 4'/4' S.S. using diamond shape sieve pattern ,w/one seam to gain length required ,is perimeter secured top and bottom ,that wide a flare unsupported would require very secure top mounting,And secure seam ,these questions and comments may or not apply ,as interrupting written word may be in error ,I am sure you have gone over the flow thru rate,and the exit is much larger than the intake ,I totally understand and applaud you concerns related to getting it as right the first time as possible,This vessel ,save the filter bags should be virtually empty in full operation and require some sort of external mounting and stabilization , feeding your pump activated receiver tank ,the in depth design and safety sizing ,shows you engineering abilities ,Would like to see pix when possible ,as I am sure others would to ,I hope all this made some sort of sense!

Multi-,

I wish I could post a pix or at least a drawing, but I can find no way to attach anything. I know there was a way once because I have used it, but the attachment feature only allows me to enter a URL?

On to your comments and Q's.

The cone sieve will be a truncated cone. The upper and lower perimeters will be attached to a SS ring on the inside of the cone with either silver solder or low amperage TIG weld. The seam down the length of the cone will be soldered. There are specialized methods, cleaners and solder to use and I have observed the art. I believe I can do it with some practice. The SS rings for the support of the top and bottom perimeter I thought to make out of automotive brake line tubing. I think they are SS.

I had originally designed to have a 4" - 6" upper perimeter apperture on the cone, but have reduced that to 2.5" . With a base diameter of 18", an upper aperture diameter of 2.5" and a height of 12", I will have 460 sq in surface area or 3.19 sq ft. The water flow data of this material is 2.393 GPM/sq in @ 1 psi. Although there will be virtually no pressure applied in this application, the screen could theoretically handle 1,100 GPM.

Catfishnut

 

[Catfishnut]

Gordy, at some point I saw a series of YOUTUBE videos where someone made a DIY sieve, and I think it had some sort of overflow [or something -- maybe it wasn't overflow but an actual part of the debris collection???] and stuff was collected into mesh bags. It looked fairly easy to construct, though probably beyond MY abilities. If I can find it [them -- there were several, either as a series or showing progression of the idea....], I'll post.

M,

I believe I know the ones you are talking of, seen many. Here is one:

With my design, everything will be in one single barrel, unlike in the video where he is using the sieve filter in one barrel and the filter socks in another. This is the reason for the cone shape on the sieve, to gain more surface area in a confined area. The cone will also have the wider opening at the bottom so that the debris water sloughs off to the outer edge of the barrel. So the filter socks will be placed around the outside perimeter as well. Opposed to the design in the video where they are sort of in the center of the tank.

Rather using wood for the filter bag holder and painting it, I am going to cut a piece of lexan or polyethylene into a round disc that will just fit into the barrel and have a large opening in the center. The water that falls through the sieve cone will fall straight to the bottom of the tank, the dirty water and debris will slough on down the sides of the cone and drop into the filter bags. The sieve cone will actually sit right on top of the lexan or poly ring for its support. I will install some low profile angle brackets, bolted to the inside of the tank, for the filter holder ring to rest upon.

The inlet pipe will actually come into the tank from below and then turn upwards and go up through the center of the sieve cone. Just above the top of the cone, I will attach some dispersion device to dump the water over the outer surface of the cone like a 360° fountain.

Catfishnut

 

[multifasited]

Yeah Baby ,Pix Or sketch would help , see what you can do !!

 

[Catfishnut]

UPDATE

Going back to my initial design of a "muck-dropper"... I think I desire this sort of implementation for overall maintenance-free design or should I say reduced maintenance design. After rolling the initial design over and over in my head, I realized that the concept wasn't so bad after all and what was missing was an element of nature's own design.

Clean water is filtered in nature by many things, but mostly, it is clarified by the earth through layers of rock, gravel and sand. This is why some people like to utilize a sand and gravel pack filter to clarify their water. Water could be purified this way, too. But, only by using an immensely large filtration system. In nature, there are many other aspects that lend a hand to this process that cannot be easily or economically duplicated in a back yard setting, you need huge aquafers of underground water, sieved through many layers of sand and gravel with important bacteria and natural chemicals and elements to complete the process.

However, what is easy to visualize is that multiple layers of sand and gravel will create a filter system. You can build one from a 55 gal barrel and layering sand and gravel and rock in varying coarseness through the barrel. You can percolate water UP through it or sieve filter the water DOWN through these layers of sand and gravel and rock. It works, but it usually plugs up quickly and then it is a bearcat to clean and renew.

Therefore, since it works in nature, I thought there ought to be a way to emulate it synthetically. Copy the concept, but not the total system. So this is my idea........

1] Gravity feed the pond water to the bottom of a 55 gal barrel from BD's spaced in appropriate locations in the pond (or in my case a large tank).

2] Force the water to UPFLOW through baffle plates with varying diameter of holes drilled through them. The higher up the water column in the barrel, the smaller the holes become and the number of the holes increases. If the input pipe is 2" diameter, the total area of that pipe is 3.1416 square inches. The first baffle would be drilled with 1/2" holes, but enough holes to double the area. So say 32 1/2" diameter holes which would be 6.28 square inches. As you go upward the tank, the holes in the baffles become smaller, but more numerous, so as to never restrict the total water flow, but to continually cause it to lose energy as it travels upwards in the barrel. This promotes the sedimentation.

3] The holes from one baffle to the next would be staggered so that the water flow can not directly flow from one bafffle to the next (passing from one hole through the next). The upflowing water column or "jet" will encounter a solid, flat surface that will break its flow and disperse the water current into that baffle zone to circulate and drop sediment as it loses energy. The water has to spend some time in each chamber, trying to figure out the maze to find the open holes to get to the next chamber above. This will promote sediment drop out within each stage.

4] Cleaning this filter will be so obviously simply when you consider what happens with the staggered hole design from one baffle plate to the next. If you shut off the water flow in and out, then open the drain water valve in the very bottom of the barrel, all the water within the barrel will gravity feed down to the bottom drain. As the water exits one baffle zone, since the holes are staggered, it will fall upon the debris collection zone of the baffle plate below and wash the muck off the surface and down through the open holes in that plate. The water exiting that zone will wash (rinse) the flat areas of the next zone and on and on. With multiple layers of baffles and staggered holes, the reverse cleaning action is a no-brainer here. One flush does most all of the cleaning for you in one swipe. The same design considerations to make it drop the muck makes it wash away the muck with the same principle. The rain action from each level down to the next will flush away the majority of what is sedimented on each baffle plate as the water drains out of the tank.

5] Each baffle will be only a snug filt within the barrel walls, no glue or screws, etc. Short lengths of PVC pipe attached to each baffle plate will keep the individual plates aligned and separated. If needed, each baffle plate can be removed and hosed off in the yard. I am thinking that four to six baffle plates will be required, each separated 3"-4" apart.

6] The effluent water should be quite clean. Obviously no large matter. This effluent water could be run directly through several 100 or 150 micron nylon filters before entering the bio-converter tanks. The micron filters would not fill up and clog fast in this setup. They may even not be needed.

The detriment to this, if it does work the way I theorize, is that the gunk is still within your watering system and producing toxic ammonia. It would be up to the maintenance schedule on how oftern to purge this settling chamber or "muck dropper" but, at least it is not flowing into the bio-conversion system to foul it. This is basically how a home septic system functions, but on a much more refined scale. I know it will work because septic systems work and work for years without cleaning or maintenance. Obviously, this is uniquely different because of the purpose. We are not just rying to drain away the effluent, we are trying to recycle it. That is a major concern regarding the water quality. However, for the fish that I will be keeping, I think that this is going to serve me very well. That is, if it truly works as I envision. I believe that it will. Do I have any yea votes from the readers here?

Catfishnut

 

[Catfishnut]

UPDATE:

Well, I am still moving forward on this project theme of the upflow "Muck Dropper" filter. Changed some of the initial "conceptual" drawings that were in my head and on a few pieces of scrap paper.

I couldn't figure out exactly how I was going to manage driling tens of thousands 1/16" and 1/8" and 3/16" and 1/4", etc holes through 1/2" thick pieces of poly! How would I lay them all out and how the heck would I find the time to drill them all! I found the answer through AutoCad and BobCad and a CNC milling machine. Had to alter some of my designs to fit the confines of the machince, but I now see that it could work very well on a slightly smaller layout.

I developed three programs via the BobCad software and transferred them to the CNC mill and used a regular drill bit as the tool to cut the holes.

When I get the project completed, I will post pix and assembly diagrams of the filter. I have too many details and unfinished parts design to address posting pix right now, but it is really starting to come together for me. I believe that I will have a working prototype by the middle of July or August, hopefully. It would be sooner, but there are other life activities that call my attention away from my hobbies.

I wish my hobby could come sooner, just in case I need to modifiy the design. I need to get a prototype operational during the warmer months so that I can get back to the drawing board quickly to make adjustments and revisions and still have good weather to play with it out in the yard.... In the SUN and warmth.

I am actually starting to move more quickly on this project. Got a lot accomplished. That is saying a LOT since I kept changing my design every 30 minutes! Ha Ha! I also kept running out of drafting paper! Well, I have a legit design now and I am actually fabricating parts for testing it. For now, I have no pix to share, but if you will, just please wish me luck!

Catfishnut

 

[HTH]

Never mind. I was going to pester you for pictures.

 

[Catfishnut]

HTH,

Thanks for responding here. I finally think I figured out how to attach pix, but now I have to figure out why my micro isn't recording them so that I can xfer them to my PC.

This is ok for now because I have a lot of work to do to get the individual prototype assemblies and structures created first. That gives me time to figure out what is wrong
with my cell phone camera and the disc, etc. Probably doing something stupid or the microCard chip is just plain defunct.

Catfishnut

 

[HTH]

If you have an android phone (think iphone works too) I have a solution.

Dropbox is now setup so that you can take pics with you phone and as soon as the phone is in wifi range it transfers the images to the dropbox/camera_uploads folder on you PC. Rather neat you take them and there they are. Dropbox also has a public folder where every file has a URL that you can use.

I use a xoom with no phone (wifi only). If you use a phone I would be sure it was using wifi and not your phone to do the transfers if the phone transfer costs.

 

[Catfishnut]

I am thinking about getting a nice digital video recorder/camera. I have an anniversary at work and that is one of the free gifts that they are offering me.

I would like to video the CNC mill creating the filter baffle plates that I have designed. It's kinda cool to watch it in action.
Of course, watching it drilling 1,685 1/8" holes gets a little old quickly. Glad I am not doing this manually!

I know that I have uploaded just still pix before, but now my microDisc is showing two empty folders and no matter how many pix I take, there is nothing being stored on the disc.
Don't know what the deal is.

Catfishnut

 

[HTH]

CNCs are handy. I used to have access to a small one up at school and I used it to drill the holes in PCBs prior to etching. Now that I can't use it I just send em of and have them made. Too much work

When I am up to it I need to slog through this thread.

 

[Catfishnut]

Howard,

When you are "up to it" as you say, I'd like to have your opinions on my design ideas. Right now, it is difficult to ask anybody to "visualize" this project without the aid of pictures or videos, but if you manage to grasp the concept from mere words, that would be awesome.

The overall concept of the design is an upflow and purely mechanical filtration unit to elliminate the sediment and major suspended particles. Instead of a Vortex separator, which I have no space for, or the typical "sieve" filter, I have opted for this modified design to use as a prefilter "settling tank" before I pass the water on to a fines filtration sieve filter.

My concept for this initial "sediment drop" stage is based mainly upon two principles. 1] Upflow mechanical filtration through porous substrates and 2] fluid dynamics, where the alteration of the fluid's energy and direction of flow causes the fluid to lose its ability to retain particles in suspension.

Basic concept is the upflow of water through a series of finer and finer mechanical screens, just like using rock, pebbles, gravel and then sand as in a sand and gravel pack filter. But, in this case, I am simply using poly (plastic) plates with small holes drilled through them to simulate the altering layers of the filtering rocks, pebbles and sand. Albeit much less effective than a sand and gravel pack upflow filter bed, it will have the distinct advantage of being readily cleaned or purged very quickly and without any mess of media removal or disassembly of the filter unit. The cleaning or purging cycle will simply consist of isolating the unit from the pond outflow water and the downstream filters and then opening a bottom drain valve to allow the contents to exit out into the lawn or garden, etc.

The filter baffles / plates are stacked one above the other like floors in a multi-story building and the holes are drilled in a staggered fashion so that they do not line up with the holes in the plate below or above it. When you shut off the water flow in and out of the tank and open the bottom drain valve, the water simply rains down from the top, plate by plate, and exits the drain line.
Since the holes from plate to plate are staggered, the water coming down from above rinses the muck and silt and sediment off the plate below it and the muck naturally has to go on down through the holes in that plate.

The larger and heavier sediment and muck will naturally be deposited in the lower levels of the tank. The fines will eventually drop out at the higher levels or "floors". The finishing or top layer will only screen out particles larger than 1/8" in diameter maximum. But, any particle that size should be too heavy to reach that level in the first place. At the highest levels, the sediments and fines "should" be extremely small diameter.

Once the water reaches this level of filtration, I will hopefully be able to utilize a 300 micron SS filter mesh followed by 100 micron poly bag filters and then send this final mechanically strained water on to the biological conversion system. My expectaion is simply to remove the largest suspended particles prior to the bio system.

The very first sediment filter stage will settle out 1/4" debris first, then 3/16" and finally 1/8". The next stage will sieve filter down to 300 microns and then (filter sock) to 100 microns.

The main idea is to accomplish the major settling of debris in the first barrel or tank where it can be purged out by just opening a valve and where the filtering media (the plates) can never become clogged. This should reduce the fines prior to the second barrel where the extreme fines filtering takes place. Here, in this second barrel, I will have to check and remove/clean the filter sieve and socks as I find necessary over time and according to the fish load (poop) in the pond.

The third and fourth stages wil be totally dedicated to bio-media and removal of ammonia and nitrites. I will use a combination of a moving bed with Kaldness K3 and then separately, a static barrel with Matala rolls of varying porosity with a bakki type shower feed.

The fifth and sixth stages will consist of polishing media, including Zeolite, AC and a special filter media similar to quilt batting, but not precisely identical. It is something I can obtain from work.

The final stages will be for aeration, heating and water quality monitoring and pumping back to the pond.

There are many stages and objectives here and I am attempting to consolidate them all into as small of an area and as few containers (barrels) as I can.
This is why I keep changing my design concepts so often. i.e. "If I redesign THIS I can accomodate THAT and fit THIS into the OTHER THING....." Etc.


I am sure that you comprehend my strategy at least.

Catfishnut

 

[HTH]

What sort of pond is this filter system for, goldfish, koi, plants? Maybe super clean koi etc ?

Two general observations.In regards to the mechanics of mechanical filtration. Take it as personal opinion and not hard and fast fact.

First:
I once did an experiment where I took a 10 gallon fish tank and fitted with numerous plates of bonded filter floss. Think of each plate as a tank divider. I wanted to know if more was better. An aquarium with just a single layer of bonded filter floss will clean and clear the water. Yet I found that came out the other end of 6 or 8 plates was not clean.

What I learned is that many filter systems are multi pass systems. Meaning they are inefficient at filtering and miss a percentage of the particles. But if you continuously pass that water through the filter it will over time get virtually all of it. The implication of this caused me to change the way I think about filters.

Second:
The first media stage on my upflow 55 gallon barrel is about 18 inches of thin wall 1/2 PVC pipe cut in an assortment of lengths averaging about 2 inches or so. The second stage is about 12 or 15 inches of bio balls. There is no real filter here in terms of mechanical mesh. The only action at works is particles settling out or getting snagged by other particles or media. After a few weeks the filter works far better then one would expect given that there is no mesh filter.

I have come to doubt the wisdom of single pass systems. The are generally more expensive, harder to maintain and need more maintenance. One does not have to design a pond filter like one would a filter for drinking water.

 

[Catfishnut]

The pond to be served by this filter system is actually a very large baitfish tank - a rectangular polyethylene tank approximately 900 gallon capacity. It will hold bullhead catfish, bluegills, sunfish, baby carp, minnows, crayfish, frogs, salamanders etc. Basically, whatever live swimming bait that I happen to catch. And then maybe a few aquatic plants simply for nitrate removal and a little bit of aesthetics.

I am not sure that I understand your aquarium experiment. It sounds like you are saying the water got dirtier after passing it through a succession of filters! You didn't mean to infer that, did you?
I did, however, grasp the concept of multi-pass systems.

I may seem to be going about this conceptual design with an extremely eccentric and "mad scientist" attitude, but that is part of the fun for me. I really get excited about just testing and experimenting with theories and ideas and then learning how to make them work in the real world. If anything, I am at least getting exposure and training on a CNC mill and the CAD programs to play around with my concepts! That's just a plus factor on its own.

The first tank in my system above has the sole function of settling out the detritus and undissolved sediments prior to sending the water into the bio chamber.

I do not want to "trap" these items with a mesh filter which would require cleaning or replacement, so I am attempting to merely separate them from the water in a system like a river with back currents and eddies. The "filter" plates or baffles are not intended to act like a mesh filter, they are intended to disperse the water flow so that it cannot and does not pass straight through the baffles. Thus causing the water to abruptly change direction and slow down, so that the water loses energy and thus cannot hold suspended particles so readily.

As the water upflows through these baffles, there will be greater numbers of holes but with increasingly smaller diameter. From one stage to the next, I will increase the potential of water outflow. For example, coming into the bottom of the tank is a 2 inch diameter pipe fed by gravity flow. As the water exits the first stage, it will appear that there are four 2 inch pipes to pass out through, exiting the next stage it will appear that there are eight 2 inch pipes to pass through and so on and so forth. In this respect, the water velocity through each individual "hole" will decelerate and lose energy. The water will also lose velocity and energy when it meets the solid part of a baffle and has to change direction. Here it will produce eddy currents within that single chamber.

The water enters through a hole at the bottom, travels upwards and hits the solid area of the plate above, reverses direction and heads back downwards and hits the solid portion of the lower plate and reverses direction again and heads upwards. This eddy current action continues until the water eventually finds its way through the holes in the plate above. Then it has to repeat this action for each individual stage that I install.

The idea is an adaption of the principle used for a household septic tank. Using baffles to create individual chambers where the influent sewage has to spend resident time to drop out or float the gunk and basically separate cleaner water from dirtier water. Of course, it isn't identical because I don't have the luxury of having an 18,000 gallon septic tank installed just to clean water for a bait fish tank. I am therefore trying to recreate the same action through fluid dynamics in a minature scale version. By multiplying the action of baffle plates by the thousands on a micro scale, I hope to accomplish the separation of the largest particles in a small vessel which can be "purged" through the process of simply reversing the water flow and all the gunk comes out through the bottom drain.

Howard, you posted a description of your upflow filter with the PVC pipe chunks and bio-balls elsewhere on this forum not too long ago. The one where you described the top as being a "hat" where you planted some vegetation and being able to drain it out from the bottom by opening the valve. You had some pix and diagrams along with that post, too. I think what you have created is basically a bakki shower in reverse. It is upflowing water through a bakki shower design. That's my impression when I viewed it anyway.

I think I am doing almost the same thing, but with a few twists. In the system that I am designing, there will be no media installed, no pvc pipe or bio-balls or other types of media included in the design of this stage. Instead, I am attempting to replicate the same actions by staggering all the holes in the baffle plates and adjusting their size as it goes upwards. It is not going to be as efficient as what you have created, but it is only one stage and only the first stage of the entire system and I am hoping that cleaning it will be the blessing of the design.

Regarding the cleaning cycle... Just the other day I did perform a very crude and basic test of the two pieces that I have fabricated so far. I was very suprised at the results. It was awesome and it gave me much added enthusiasm because at least that part of my design worked so well that I now believe that I may be on the right track here. It was like the best shower emulation ever! The water draining from one level to the next was the ultimate rinse cycle for the layer below! If it works this well in the downflow direction, maybe it will work just as well in the other direction, too?

I am thinking about designing a prototype with a clear plexiglass window for the full length of the assembly so that I can actually force-feed it some filthy, muddy water and observe what happens inside and get it on film.

I am not expecting to purify the water to potable status, but if I start with that goal, what I end up with might just suprise and satisfy me. I won't know until I try.

Catfishnut

 

[HTH]

I need to tell you how much fun it is to find fellow experimenters. Please do not take any of my misunderstandings or doubts as lack of faith in what you are doing. Just a bit hard to understand at time.

I am not sure that I understand your aquarium experiment. It sounds like you are saying the water got dirtier after passing it through a succession of filters! You didn't mean to infer that, did you?

I did not. My expectation was that after flowing through many plates the water would be much cleaner then after 1 or 2. The additional plates did not help much. Than in conjunction with the fact that single plate filters work well got me thinking about single pass vs multi pass. It was never my intention to build filters along the line of the aquarium experiment.

I think I am doing almost the same thing, but with a few twists. In the system that I am designing, there will be no media installed, no pvc pipe or bio-balls or other types of media included in the design of this stage. Instead, I am attempting to replicate the same actions by staggering all the holes in the baffle plates and adjusting their size as it goes upwards. It is not going to be as efficient as what you have created, but it is only one stage and only the first stage of the entire system and I am hoping that cleaning it will be the blessing of the design.

I am eager to see how yours works out. With the pipe media my theory is that particles flow into dead spots where the water movement is too slow to keep them moving. It also lengthen the water column by forcing the water to flow sideways through some of the pipes. This should also promote settling due to a decreased vertical velocity. Settling without the dead spots is mostly related to the flow rate of the water column.. I am curious to see the effect of the plates. What they are doing for you is to even out the flow over the column. I am unclear that decreasing the size is having an effect. In use I think you will see the sediment building up around the holes in each plate as there should be little water movement there. Some distance up from the jets exiting the holes the flow should average out.

Tour test about how it back flushes was very good. I now get it.

On the photography. If one were to do one with a viewing window it would be furn to go a bit further and do a time lapse of it. At the dawn of digital photography I used a video camera to capture a lily opening and then something called a snappy to grab a frame periodicity from the tape. The resulting time lapse was good. One could even see a pad slowly moving.

I wonder is on can get the use a computer program to simulate filters? There is info out there one wold need to sift through it. Just found an article on veggie filtering. It says

Vegetative filters (VF) are used to control sediment
delivery to water bodies. VF retard flow velocity
and reduce the transport capacity of water flow
(Tollner et al., 1982). As a result, some of the sediment will be deposited as water flows through the VF.

 

[multifasited]

Thomas Edison ,did 2000 experiments in his quest for electricity and was ask how it felt to fail 2000 time his response was ,he never failed,he proven 2000 ways NOT TO MAKE ELECTRICITY ,without much ,more information ,my first impression ,is like the septic tank ,reducing the Muck ,is only the major benefit ,some bio,but the reduction of the surge flow is absorbed by the tanks size and baffles and the long ,long retention allow the bios eat up the solids to a flow able size ,but the actual cleansing of the majority of the toxins is done by the earth thru the form the earth and to gravel seepage to grass and plants insured by the gradual elevation drop of the field lines and the lento required by the law [in most communities by # of people and bath rooms } biggest real problem in most systems is the amount of Gray water being put into the Black Water,the system was designed for. Primarily soaps ,grease & and chemicals.The Bio tank ,or the grow beds are what reduce the toxins,sized to your load ,Fish & Critters that are reusing it.Before Tessel ,and Edison ,Gas ,kero & candles were the norm.Go for It I wish you all the best of luck and will follow to see advances .I am playing with a similar project ,mentally at present ,of a vortex separator ,similar to a central vac system I have built in my wood shop separating planer chips and large sawdust in a barrel prior to entering the impellers of the vac to the filters,works great. Only using raw back flush from my sand filter from my pond to a vortex tank ,w bottom drain and raised pump to feed GB back to VT recirculating FD ,recharging weekly from the back flush for food source ,No direct fish contact ,worms gravel and plants in GB .Like you always looking and finding intriguing Questions ,and challenges ,keeps the juices flowing ,I nothing else ,I prove some more ways not to do it ,and that is satisfying on to itself.My best in your quest !!Carl