FILTER CONVERSION -- THINKING ABOUT SIEVE, MAYBE?

[Mmathis]

According to what several of you guys have posted, my SKIPPY filter is more or less worthless as a bio-filter, and apparently there is enough bioconversion taking place inside the pond itself to be adequate (3200 gal., no skimmer, no bottom drain, small-to-medium load, submerged pump). Seems my biggest problem has been inadequate mechanical and/or pre-filtering, which ends up making my SKIPPY do that job (I've tried many of the techniques on this site to help with pre-filtering, but just not satisfied with the results).

So, have been thinking along 2 paths: either figure out a way to convert the SKIPPY so that it is a mechanical (my pump is solids-handling) filter and forget thinking about it as a bio-filter. Or do away with the SKIPPY altogether and get a sieve filter. Either way, the mechanical filter/sieve would empty into the pond via a waterfall. For the sieve, guess I would need one that is pump-fed?

Ideas or thoughts for either path are welcome: I have no idea how to convert SKIPPY to a mechanical operation, and I feel kinda silly having this 100 gal. SKIPPY sitting there & running if it's not doing anything but circulating water..... But if a sieve would be a better answer, I'm willing to ask Santa to check out that option for me

BTW, do the sieve filters use electricity? And which ones are best to consider?

 

[koiguy1969]

first off... the problem with a skippy or any submerged media filter is clogging the media with debris and organics cutting off the food & oxygen to the aerobic bacteria. good prefiltering can and should solve this problem...thats what a seive is, its a prefilter. the difference being that it removes the debris from the water itself. by allowing water flow thru the screen above its own water level.as with any filter the cleaner the water passing thru the biomedia the healthier the bacteria colonizing it. i use a skippy on both ponds, inside and out. and i keep larger fish loads.lets see, i am now keeping 83 fish in a 800 gal system in my basement...no plants, no sun, and just one 55 gal skippy style filter. i have 5,17- 23 inch koi, 1 19" pieco and the rest are 3 -7 inch koi. fed 3 times a day. and my water is clean, clear, and parameters are great... i gotta disagree with anybody who says my filter doesnt work... certainly with well over 200" of fish in 800 gals is all the proof i need. and thats every year. so if your going to impliment a seive why not use it as a prefilter for the skippy?.... theres really no such thing as too much filtration...better to have and not need than need and not have!!

 

[crsublette]

Oh Mmathis, heh, you go too far. Don't let all the talk bug ya.

Personally, I think Skippy's has a proper role in the bio-filter arena if you're happy with it. If all your water parameter's are still fine, then the Skippy is doing its job. There are always better options, but you already have the Skippy; so, if you're water parameters are still fine, just keep using it. You can disconnect the skippy and see if your water parameters stay steady for a season. I wouldn't do too much drastic about removing the bio-filter. The biological mass load is so low on some ponds that they don't need a bio-filter.

A sand & gravel filter is a cheaper route versus the Sieve. How to build a "Birdman" S&G Filter. The construction of S&G is no more complex than a Skippy. I have read much about S&G used as only mechanical filter, but ya just gotta remember to clean blow it out at least once a week.

I have not yet read a proper sieve DIY'd that can handle a good high flow without losing alot of water. I'm still reading though so it could be out there somewhere. Most seives are gravity returned. Some seives can not be pump fed. So, read the fine print on the product. Sieves do not require electricity. For a good explanation on a sieve, the zakki website explains the process quite well. Retail sieves involve quite a bit of craftsmanship so the cost will be hovering around $1,000~1,400. AquaForte is a often quoted manufacturer for sieve filters.

• AquaForte Compact Sieve II (250 micron, pump fed on outlet side of pump, gravity return, 4,000gph max flow). due to gravity return, must be ablove pond water level unless an extra pumpor airlift is used.
• AquaForte Ultra Sieve III (300micron, gravity fed, gravity return, 7900gph max flow). due to gravity return, must be ablove pond water level unless an extra pump or airlift is used.
• Zakki Sieve (250micron, pump fed on sunction side of pump, pressurized return, 1500gph minimum require flow to operate, 4500gph max flow, ). 80% of this filter can be under pond water level without an extra pump.

I am really liking the Zakki. Don't have one yet, but I think I am going to get one after I make my dinky little pond bigger.

If money is a problem, then a S&G does well enough. A 1hp blower costs around $100~200. Plus a 55gal barrel and the plumbing add around another $100. S&G probably cost around $200~400 and possibly cheaper if you can find some good deals. S&G operates much like a bog filter except it only takes a couple of minutes to clean it with reasonably cheap blower. You could try to convert the 100 gal barrel to a S&G, but you will need a more expensive blower.

If a S&G is still too expensive, then you could do something like what CliffandJoann did consisting of three 35~45 gallon tubs, put in a series, each tub uses different materials (hyperlink describes it better).

If you want something more aesthetically please, then you can do a bog in like a 300 gallon tub or something in the ground.

There's always going to be something that is better and for good reasons. Don't let this get to ya. To allow your Skippy to do better, you should put a mechanical filter before it.

 

[Waterbug]

I've said static submerged media filters like Skippy are worthless, but of course that's an over simplification. It would take pages and pages to discuss all the edge conditions. But imo they are so limited that I do consider them to be worthless when looking at the big picture for the same reason you ran into. There's just been no combo filter that's ever been able to do mechanical and bio well...and there's been a ton of tries. Bead filters came pretty close, but still not great.

A Skippy can be converted to a moving bed filter pretty easy, if you need bio. You know that from testing.

Skippy can do pre-filtering about I assume your unhappiest is with the amount of work to clean the Skippy? That's normally the big issue with an pre-filter. Pretty easy to make a pre-filter, hard to made one that's easy to clean.

Sieve filters don't use electricity themselves, but of course a pump is needed. There are close cousins called "rotary drum filters" which do use electricity, but these aren't exactly a sieve. In sieve filters the mesh is not below water, water runs over and falls thru. Sieve filters have been around for centuries, used in mining, waste treatment, etc.

I think you have to be careful if you really want a sieve. Unfortunately many people are adding the word "sieve" to their filters either to fool people or they simply don't know what a sieve filter is. For example the HydroSieve isn't a sieve in any way, it's a strainer. The Zakki Sieve, Aquasieve and other pressurized (or vacuum) I don't think are sieve filters...but I'm not 100% sure. It looks like they are all strainer baskets. That doesn't make them bad, just not sieves imo. Many people like different ones as pre-filters, some are disliked because of cleaning difficulty so reading reviews is a good idea to see if a filter fits your desires.

For actual sieves, if you want the pump before the sieve there's the "Compact Sieve". Half the price because it's a lot simpler. But there's some serious downsides to the pump being before a pre-filter. Main downside is one important use of a pre-filter is to protect the pump. If string algae clogs the pump what good is a pre-filter? The next downside is the pump chops up stuff so it can get thru the sieve. If you wanted this kind of set up it would be easy to convert the Skippy. Sieve is just water moving over some kind of screen. You can use anything from window screen to wedge mesh.

That leaves gravity fed sieves like Cetus, Ultrasieve, etc. More expensive because of moving parts which can fail. These are not simple to install. And gravity fed systems have tight requirements for GPH and pipe sizes. It can be difficult to retrofit these, but certainly doable. You really have to study up on these before buying.

The last case is DIY. Sending pump output over a sieve is easy as I said. Gravity fed is tricky but I think doable without the complexity of the floating weir. I'm planning on making one for my next pond. The issue I think will be sizing the tank to the pump. I'll have to do some experiments first to find out.

 

[Waterbug]

A sand & gravel filter is a cheaper route versus the Sieve. How to build a "Birdman" S&G Filter. The construction of S&G is no more complex than a Skippy. I have read much about S&G used as only mechanical filter, but ya just gotta remember to clean blow it out at least once a week.

S&G filters are for fine particles. You will be very disappointed if you use one as a pre-filter. The large stuff trapped at the bottom is likely to stay in the bottom and not move up thru the fluidized S&G during backwash. Certainly would require move frequent and longer backwashes. And the pump has to be before a S&G.

 

[crsublette]

S&G filters are for fine particles. You will be very disappointed if you use one as a pre-filter. The large stuff trapped at the bottom is likely to stay in the bottom and not move up thru the fluidized S&G during backwash. Certainly would require move frequent and longer backwashes. And the pump has to be before a S&G.

I have read it done as primary on koiphen without issue; well, without issue for the pond owner that is which makes the difference. Yep, definitely more frequent blowouts such as possibly every 4 days. Ya might could stretch it to a week depending on how risky you want to get with the blowout boil. Not saying that's right! Personally, I would not use a S&G as my primary and I would also not use a Skippy, but this thread isn't giving advice to just me.

Good point, I forgot to mention on the pump. S&G outlets are gravity return so you would need to have another pump, which could add to the cost of choosing to use a S&G.

 

[crsublette]

There's just been no combo filter that's ever been able to do mechanical and bio well...and there's been a ton of tries. Bead filters came pretty close, but still not great.

There's the E.R.I.C combo filter !! Supposedly the "best filter in the world". Heh. Of course, he recommends daily flushes of the mechanical filter chamber.

 

[crsublette]

I never liked the "true" self cleaning sieves. I have watch youtube videos and read reviews mostly involving the Cetus. There is quite a bit of water loss over time and the debris does not gets pushed out as it should depending on the debris and your outdoor situation. I suppose you could say this water loss would just compliment a flow through system, if ya are using a flow through.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Most sieves are designed to be gravity fed with the pump after after the sieve draining the sieve chamber. Most gravity fed sieve systems have bottom drains, and in larger ponds, need tangential pond returns that help circulate debris and pond poop towards the bottom drain(s) working together the whole system works really well.
Without a bottom drain you are really missing a crucial element in achieving a great filtering system, pumping from a pump at the bottom of the pond pretty much guaranties two things, (1) you'll never be able to get as much debris off the bottom of your pond, (2) all of the debris that you do get will be pureed into fine stuff by the pump impellers.
That being said you can work with what you have, but before you run out and buy a sieve I'd try some simpler approaches first.
One simple thing that works very well for collecting the fine stuff is quilt batting. There are different ways people use it in their systems, some just run water though it in a basket or something under their waterfalls, not very elegant, but it works, and it has a simple overflow system if the batting gets plugged, the water just runs over the top. Of course there are other ways to utilize quilt batting material in more concealed way inside a filter system. I've have a thread somewhere in the DIY portion of this thread, that works really well, but like most things it has a down side, and that is you either have to replace or wash out the filtering material (the quilt batting) periodically. How often you have to clean it depends on how dirty you water is. You see the quilt batting is so good and filtering out fine stuff that it can plug up quite fast if your water is very dirty. This is why you need to design some sort of overflow or bypass system into whatever system you use it in.
Quilt batting = simple, cheap, effective. what's not to like.

 

[Waterbug]

I have read it done as primary on koiphen without issue; well, without issue for the pond owner that is which makes the difference.

That would be an interesting read if you happen to run into the link again. I've never read anything like that, but that doesn't mean someone, someplace hasn't done it. It would make sense to me that if someone did use a S&G as a pre-filter that they would also think they didn't have any issue.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

The link to my homemade quilt batting filter
http://www.gardenpon...ting-filtering/

 

[Mmathis]

The link to my homemade quilt batting filter
http://www.gardenpon...ting-filtering/

My biggest issue is that I'm not happy with my mechanical filtration, or lack thereof.

So, Mucky, your filter doesn't sit in the pond, but inside a tank? I was trying to come up with something similar [I'd recalled your design, but not the details], but was trying to make mine be underwater and attached to my pump, coming before the pump. Was a nightmare in that I had hoses getting in the way and the darn thing wouldn't stay where I wanted it. Another problem is that the pump I have [solids-handling from HOME DEPOT] doesn't have a way to attach a hose or tubing directly to the input [which I was trying to do....].

Wonder if it would be possible to add a filter component, similar to what you have, that would sit inside the SKIPPY and filter the water as it enters? Something like that would be a lot easier to disconnect for cleaning instead of having to drag something out of the pond -- and I'd be a lot more likely to do that task if it was easier! Right now all I have [in the pond, period] in the way of any mechanical filtration, is quilt batting inside the SKIPPY, at the outflow point so it only catches stuff on its way back to the pond, which is kinda backwards.

 

[crsublette]

That would be an interesting read if you happen to run into the link again. I've never read anything like that, but that doesn't mean someone, someplace hasn't done it. It would make sense to me that if someone did use a S&G as a pre-filter that they would also think they didn't have any issue.

I would think they would have issues using S&G as their only mechanical filter and probably wouldn't know it until they disassembled the structure or until the filter stops blowing out properly. It's really not much different than using a bog as their only filter. I have seen big debris such as acorns, leaves, twigs, and algae being flushed out when using a 2hp blower on a 55gal S&G. The 2hp blower makes a huge boil and i'd be more concerned about dislodging the layers, but I suppose it is ok until problems start to happen. It's kind of like one of those disclaimers manufacturers give about "proper use"; you might get away with it for a while..

 

[crsublette]

The link to my homemade quilt batting filter
http://www.gardenpon...ting-filtering/

Yeah, this is a good one too ... grr, I usually hyperlink it as well, but I was in a rut there.

Wonder if it would be possible to add a filter component, similar to what you have, that would sit inside the SKIPPY and filter the water as it enters? Something like that would be a lot easier to disconnect for cleaning instead of having to drag something out of the pond -- and I'd be a lot more likely to do that task if it was easier! Right now all I have [in the pond, period] in the way of any mechanical filtration, is quilt batting inside the SKIPPY, at the outflow point so it only catches stuff on its way back to the pond, which is kinda backwards.

Pressurized version of mucky's filter, post#6. The guy pretty much did a deal like Mucky, but he is using a gamma seal lid so that the container can be pressurized very good, lid should be easy to screw off, and you can connect it before your skippy. You can make some cheap bulkhead connectors out of electrical plastic conduit male and female adapters. Cut a hold in the bucket with a hole saw, don't make the hole too big, put some PL goop on the male thread and the shoulder of both adpators and around the hole edges, then connect the adapters together with the bucket wall in the middle, then add a little more PL goop to make sure it doesn't leak. Wait a day or two to make sure the goop cures. Ya would need to do this for the inlet and outlet. Supposedly, those gamma seal lids can hold up to 60psi without extra straps. Two pieces to the lid where: the first piece you hammer on the top of the 5 gall bucket that has threads; the second piece is a lid with a gasket that you screw onto the first piece. Suppose to be pretty easy to screw on and off the lid.

Yeah, it's probably the best cheap quilt batting filter i've seen. You could probably make a couple of these. One has some batting that is very porous and then making another that uses a much finer batting. Just be sure you don't forget to clean. Connect them before your Skippy.

 

[crsublette]

since this thread is kind of about DIY'n a sieve. thought i'd share.

found a good one.

Came across a decent looking DIY sieve on youtube. It's not a "true" self cleaning sieve though. diy sieve part 1/2 (how to make). it's a bit clunky and bigger footprint than any other i've seen, but it appears to work!