how did the rock bottom trend start?

[RobAmy]

I was watching a video of a koi pond that was rectangular and bare nothing in it. I watched the fish swim/pace back and forth in a pattern. I wondered what their true before human habitat was like? No plants, rocks, no life except minor alge? Now I am not a fish expert but do have indoor tanks and give them plenty of tunnels, hiding places and the like. Prolly spend more money then I need to on them. These koi reminded me of some of the bears at zoo's I have seen pacing back and forth looking board. No offense just an observation, maybe the fish could care less if they have tunnels, rocks or plants to swim thru?

I have to agree here, my fish use every thing in the pond. Plants, tunnels, rocks, gravel etc. I know I move a plant and they are all near it and seeing what's new. I think it enriches there being a bit. May not be needed at all but they seem to enjoy it.

 

[RobAmy]

I debated if I wanted a rock bottom for my pond but decided against it only due to the fact I did not want to have to completely drain off the pond when major maintenance was needed. My stream is completely rocked and graveled. I have seen both rocked and rocked that are doing great. Some look good some do not. A personal thing really. Like bottom drains, they could be installed but not needed imho. Comes down to maintenance and the look. There is no wrong way as long as your fish are healthy and you enjoy your pond.

 

[Sunshine]

When I first started, I had about 2 inches of rock on the bottom. I had to drain and clean every year. Now, I just have a thin layer of egg rock and gravel. My pond is very much low maintenance. I don't drain it anymore. I do about 4 water changes a year. Clean the bio twice a year and do nothing to the bog. I wanted a pond to enjoy, not have another chore. But, having said that, I don't have any trees near and the pond is surrounded by a 6 foot privacy fence and has an arbor covering above it. So I don't get much debris in it.

 

[Sunshine]

Another good question. Both of my aquariums are bare bottom. Some people use the gravel to root plants. In my opinion, it traps the poops, which is gross. With a bare bottom, my filters are powerful enough to remove the poop.

I use sand in my planted tank.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I think of the bottom of the pond as being similar to a compost pile. A pile of leaves, twigs, grass clippings, etc. eventually will break down. How fast depends on many factors - the composition of the pile, moisture, temperature, and so on. And the end result is a product which is full of life-giving properties.

Life-giving properties???
That's a sweet way to look at it, but another, probably more accurate, way to look at it would be to think of the bottom of a pond as a septic tank, where all the poop and waste material builds up and oxygen levels drop making condition favorable for anaerobic bacteria which producing death dealing gasses like hydrogen sulphide and methane.
Both composts and septic tanks are useful things for breaking down wastes and they have their place, but in your home, or the confined space of a pond, the life giving properties they have may just be to the anaerobic bacteria.

 

[Lisak1]

You're right - given the right (or wrong) conditions, a compost pile will get smelly, slimy, and gross. However, managed properly it is one of the greatest sources of nutrients and microorganisms you can add to your garden. A good compost pile is full of worms and spores and bacteria that all work to break the organic material down into compost. The same thing happens all over nature - woodlands and meadows and the bottom of lakes and ponds.

If you have a pond situated where it gets dumped full of leaves every fall, you obviously need to manage that. But having organic matter on the bottom of your pond is not a bad thing - and that includes fish poop. Everyone likes to equate fish swimming in a pond to us swimming in a toilet - hardly the same thing. Fish are designed to live in the same environment that they eat, sleep, poop and mate in. We are not. Too many fish = too much poop and that's where things go south. But a well managed fish load and feeding regime can result in a pond that will be able to handle a normal amount of waste and organic matter. And a gravel bottom is part of the whole process.

 

[Lisak1]

I hope no one perceives this as an argument. To me this is a valid, useful conversation about different styles and viewpoints on pond keeping. Most forums will shut you down the minute you mention rocked ponds - like you are the anti-Christ. I think it's still OK for people to have different ideas and to share what works for them. Understanding the differences in our ponds is key to learning - I'll say it again: I do NOT keep a koi pond. I have a garden pond with plants and some koi. There's a world of difference. But for anyone exploring the thought of building a pond and hearing over and over and over again that rocking your pond is tantamount to building a septic tank to house your fish, I'm here to say no it's not. It works and it's sustainable.

 

[slakker]

I'm in the pacific north west and we have a lot of natural rock bottom streams and lakes like the pictures above. I actually quite like the look.

Also, not sure if it makes any sense in a pond, but borrowing the idea of a "deep sand bed" from my reef aquarium; I'm thinking it may be a place for anaerobic bacteria to break down nitrates to free nitrogen as part of the nitrogen cycle. I'm a newb to ponding (only second year), but so far so good...

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Don't worry Lisak1 (or is it just Lisa?)
We are all entitled to our own viewpoint.
I have a bottom drain and no rocks in the deep part of my pond, but I do have some rocks in my pond in the shelf areas where a lot of muck accumulates. So you might say I swing both ways, except that I recognize that it's generally healthier not having the accumulated muck.
In the summer when all the plants are growing and the waterfall is running full blast and dissolved oxygen (DO) levels are high a little bit of muck is not a problem at all, but come winter when the waterfall is shut down and pond is covered in ice and DO levels are at their minimum things get a little more serious, as far as fish as concerned.
When it come to the breakdown of waste there are basically two types of bacteria, aerobic and anaerobic. One needs oxygen to do it's thing, the other doesn't. We think of the first one as the "good" bacteria because it lives in an oxygen environment and doesn't produce the toxic gases like H2S, but in fact because it consumes oxygen and it can actually compete with the fish for the limited amount of oxygen in a confined space, like a pond. The more food waste you provide for the bacteria, the more oxygen it consumes. This is often the biggest problem (for fish) with too much waste build up in a pond. Compound that with the possibility that the layer of waste may be so thick that the lower levels are oxygen starved and anaerobic bacteria starts producing H2S and you may end up with a lethal environment. At least as far as fish are concerned.
You don't need rocks in the bottom of your pond for that to happen, just a lot of waste buildup from lack of cleaning. But this is why so many people don't want the rocks in their pond, it just makes it that much harder to clean.
The other thing you have to be careful about is comparing the sediment it natural bodies of water to the small confined space of ponds. Yes natural bodies of water often take care of themselves as far as breaking down the waste, but in many cases you are dealing with much larger volumes of water compared to the amount of waste. But even in nature fish die off in smaller lakes and ponds is very common when DO drop in the winter and rotting algae and vegetation starts consuming the limit available oxygen.

 

[Troutredds]

I find the differing opinions expressed in this thread stimulating - both entertaining and informative. It also reminds me of a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." I love Emerson. And rocks. (And Opinion)

 

[Lisak1]

We don't shut down our waterfall anymore. We have algae that grows all winter, we find the plants start growing faster in spring, and we don't lose any of our marginals to freezing when the pond keeps moving. So it's a win-win.

And I think it bears repeating - we have no muck in our pond. None. Fine sediment or silt... yes. Muck... no. And gravel. Buckets and buckets of gravel.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

. Too many fish = too much poop and that's where things go south. But a well managed fish load and feeding regime can result in a pond that will be able to handle a normal amount of waste and organic matter.

I think this is where we can fully agree.
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And a gravel bottom is part of the whole process.

But this is were we disagree.
A gravel (or rock) bottom pond can be managed, but it's certainly not integral to well balanced pond. I've seen too many rock bottom ponds being cleaned out to think for minute that the stuff that accumulates in their is somehow beneficial to the health of the pond.
I accept that initially, in a new pond, gravel and rock in the bottom of a pond will have a neutral effect. What's more after a few months or a year the rock and gravel may have a beneficial effect due to the surface area and the good bacteria growing on it. But after several years, exactly how many years depends on each pond's particular circumstances, I think the cons of the accumulated muck will cancel out any beneficial effects the rocks might still have, if any.
Check back with me here in 15 years, let me know if you are still grooving on that rock.
Meanwhile that will give you time to read this blog. http://www.worldwidekoiclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=38

 

[max384]

I think this is where we can fully agree.
___________________________________________________________

But this is were we disagree.
A gravel (or rock) bottom pond can be managed, but it's certainly not integral to well balanced pond. I've seen too many rock bottom ponds being cleaned out to think for minute that the stuff that accumulates in their is somehow beneficial to the health of the pond.
I accept that initially, in a new pond, gravel and rock in the bottom of a pond will have a neutral effect. What's more after a few months or a year the rock and gravel may have a beneficial effect due to the surface area and the good bacteria growing on it. But after several years, exactly how many years depends on each ponds particular circumstances, I think the cons of the accumulated muck will cancel out any beneficial effects the rocks might still have, if any.
Check back with me here in 15 years, let me know if you are still grooving on that rock.
That will give you time to read this blog. http://www.worldwidekoiclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=38

I can't find it now, but there's a video on YouTube about a large garden pond built by two brothers twenty-some years ago that is fully rocked in and never cleaned once. It was full of large koi and goldfish.

 

[pugle1]

I hope no one perceives this as an argument. To me this is a valid, useful conversation about different styles and viewpoints on pond keeping. Most forums will shut you down the minute you mention rocked ponds - like you are the anti-Christ. I think it's still OK for people to have different ideas and to share what works for them. Understanding the differences in our ponds is key to learning - I'll say it again: I do NOT keep a koi pond. I have a garden pond with plants and some koi. There's a world of difference. But for anyone exploring the thought of building a pond and hearing over and over and over again that rocking your pond is tantamount to building a septic tank to house your fish, I'm here to say no it's not. It works and it's sustainable.

This is what I love; the differing opinions, the shared ideas, the learning, the discussion. I love this forum. And you know what? I never shoot down someone's ideas just because they may differ from mine, and to be completely honest, many thoughts I've had where I've read differing opinions just leads me to do some research. That equals learning... that equals knowledge. Nothing wrong with knowledge. All opinions are worth consideration IMHO.

 

[Lisak1]

I can't find it now, but there's a video on YouTube about a large garden pond built by two brothers twenty-some years ago that is fully rocked in and never cleaned once. It was full of large koi and goldfish.

That's an Aquascape pond Max - we've seen that pond in person. It's beautiful! Those two brothers are awesome guys and their pond and gardens are spectacular! And you're right - they have never cleaned that pond and it sparkles! They have a couple of koi that have been there from the beginning.

Let's clarify one thing - when I say "rock bottom pond" I'm referring to a shallow layer (just enough to cover the liner, really - less than 1/2 inch deep) of gravel. Nothing accumulates on TOP of the gravel - I know that because I can see the bottom and make out individual pieces of gravel. Nothing accumulates UNDER the gravel - I know that because I walk around in my pond and intentionally stir the gravel up as I go. Like I said, a layer of fine silt is it. And that all settles within a few minutes of my exiting the pond. That's after 5 years. Will ten more years make a difference? What will change?

I'm not sure where all the muck is coming from in all these ponds you've seen Mucky - are these neglected ponds? I could imagine if we would allow the leaves to accumulate in the fall that things would start to get thick on the bottom. (Which would be true in ANY pond.) But between our "skimmer" (we don't actually have one - just the flow of water from the waterfall to the reverse bog which carries surface debris) and a bit of netting every day, we don't allow a lot to stay in the pond. In spring we scoop the leaves that fell or blew in over winter - the shallow layer of gravel on the bottom does nothing to impede our ability to clean up those leaves. But we don't empty, power wash or even worry too much about the small amount of debris that remains in the pond. It's just never been a problem. Within a matter of a few weeks, it's all broken down into that fine silt layer that I mentioned. (I attribute that to that bottled bacteria we dump in every week! )