Koi Died

[Meyer Jordan]

Why should you disagree @Lisa1 if its been an extra hard winter on these fish then its going to claim them there is a recognised depth for keeping koi at 4.5ft in the US Europe South South African and UK koi worlds the minimum depth is that of 4.5 ft if the pond has frozen over then toxins build up then you are going to see koi deaths , I cant answer for shubunklins as I dont keep them but the senario is the same .

Dave

Reports are coming in at an incredible rate of massive Koi losses in the Northeast U.S. due to this past winter. Many of these reports are from people whose ponds are 6 - 7 feet deep and are reporting 90% - !00% losses. One of those reporting massive loss is a seasoned Koi keeper and breeder who lost all of his show quality koi, many of them past award winning fish. Yet others whose ponds are 2 - 3 feet deep are reporting no loss of fish. Depth is no Winter protection for fish in a closed system.
Oxygenation is the key!

 

[Dave 54]

Reports are coming in at an incredible rate of massive Koi losses in the Northeast U.S. due to this past winter. Many of these reports are from people whose ponds are 6 - 7 feet deep and are reporting 90% - !00% losses. One of those reporting massive loss is a seasoned Koi keeper and breeder who lost all of his show quality koi, many of them past award winning fish. Yet others whose ponds are 2 - 3 feet deep are reporting no loss of fish. Depth is no Winter protection for fish in a closed system.
Oxygenation is the key!

I don't think it was the pond DEPTH that was the problem. I think the pond VOLUME is the issue. Too many fish for the gallonage of the pond is my guess, which created stress, which caused the fish to die. But it's only a guess.

Correct Lisa but the OP touched on this at the start of his thread but if we go down the route Paul is woefully overstocked hes alowed one koi , thats right one koi that makes him what one large fish a handful of shubunkins and some small koi well over the limit if we stick by the rules laid down by those experts you hate so much .
That means myself and many others on the forum more than probably break this rule each and every day ....
The reason I quoted 2.5ft as too shallow for koi carp is because it is , we in the koi world set a depth of 4.5-5ft as the ideal depth for koi and this is where the two worlds collide.
Meyer surely 2.5ft is way too shallow especially in a harsh winter and its this shallowness that has helped in that its part of the reason that caused these koi to die
Because peoples koi are dying at 5 ft as well shows how unprepared they were not so much the polar Vortex but more its length in areas where they've had one before thus finding themselves unable to keep an air hole open because of this, likewise the OP seems to have been caught out they would normally have a much milder winter where the koi have done well and thrived but your US winters keep on breaking all records lately
You yourself must have read @RobAmy worried thread this year , its the first I've ever heard them worried .
We are prepared for every eventuality from power cut to minimum temperature we do it every year and have done so since weve been outdoors all the UK koi keepers that I know go through set winter routines at the start of the winter , our lowest winter temperature this winter hit -10c for four weeks solid here in Plymouth pobably more so where Slick is but the point is we are prepared.
You yourself have a different approach to ponding than many other people and your approach to it is as different to the pond keeper as our koi ponds are to the pond keeper but surely there has to be a minimum depth set even in your own ponds ?
I would lay you the odds that the koi keeper would survive the winter because they prepare for every eventuality , so far I've heard nothing of koi deaths being reported through Spike and would have that he'd have mentioned it in yesterdays email to me , mind I have to reply yet so I'll ask if he has heard of any due to the polar vortex hitting the US.
Dont forget this is the second year this has happened , I cant recal many reports from last year.
Our Lowest has been -10c this last winter but the pond never once went below that of 7c the entire winter , its currently 8c our covers dont allow for any ice so we carry on much as normall at present, dont know about Slicks lowest recorded to the North of the UK it may well have been lower.
It sounds to be honest Meyer that this winter has caught alott of people out though I'm amazed at breeders losing their Fish that really supprised me as these people you would think would be the most prepared
I've only ever heard of one breeder in the UK ever going under to weather related phenomemum and that was Maurice Cox of koi UK who lost his business to high winds and didnt have the heart to rebuild again, he used to be our sections guest dealership on show days and thats why I heard it
I've a feeling your winters are going to get even colder still as global warming plays itself out which means people need to prepare worst case senario as we do in the koi world

Dave

 

[slick]

my pond is 5 feet deep, i have no water temp warmer levels from top to bottom! i have a bottom drain and pond level filters, so all the warm water goes down the bottom drain cools as it runs through the filters and enters the pond at water level if the water temp at the surface is 5*c the temp at the bottom of the pond is 5*c i built it deep for water mass, room to exercise, and feeding, as when koi feed they go vertical as their mouths are below their its face and presure on its tail when vertical can put them off feeding,
wayside waters has a stocked show pond its stocked all year round they cover it with plastic roofing sheet in cold weather its only 3 feet deep

 

[Lisak1]

I don't hate the experts @Dave 54 - I just don't necessarily always believe what they say. I have that kind of personality - I question and test just about everything I hear or read. As I mentioned in another thread, there are lots and lots and LOTS of examples of times that the "experts" have been proven wrong. So I take what "they" say with a grain of salt.

I do, however, always believe what I can observe with my own eyes. I have seen dozens of ponds that are only 2 feet deep in our climate stocked with koi that thrive in our winter temps. How do you argue with what you can see?

The OP also mentioned his fish had survived in his pond for 15 years. Two things changed in those years - his fish got bigger and this year was colder. You assumed it was the colder weather. I assume it's the size of the fish - he finally reached the tipping point. Is cold weather stressful for fish? I'm sure it is. But moving fish from outdoors to indoors is said to be stressful, too, and yet lots of ponders do it as a routine practice. In a perfect world our fish would experience no stress. In the real world, we can only minimize it as much as possible.

As for deeper being better - we met a man in a pond store who was rebuilding his pond. His original pond was 4x4 and nearly six feet deep. Time after time his fish died. He determined from his experience that surface area is also an important factor in allowing your pond to off-gas. (He was forced to rebuild when the sidewalls started collapsing - digging a hole that deep isn't necessarily the safest thing to do.)

 

[j.w]

I think if I had it to do over again I might make mine only about 2 foot deep and a larger surface area. I would be able to see the fish better and it would look like a bigger pond actually. We do not ever freeze much, maybe a couple inches. Next time right?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I don't hate the experts @Dave 54 - I just don't necessarily always believe what they say. I have that kind of personality - I question and test just about everything I hear or read. As I mentioned in another thread, there are lots and lots and LOTS of examples of times that the "experts" have been proven wrong. So I take what "they" say with a grain of salt.

I do, however, always believe what I can observe with my own eyes. I have seen dozens of ponds that are only 2 feet deep in our climate stocked with koi that thrive in our winter temps. How do you argue with what you can see?

The OP also mentioned his fish had survived in his pond for 15 years. Two things changed in those years - his fish got bigger and this year was colder. You assumed it was the colder weather. I assume it's the size of the fish - he finally reached the tipping point. Is cold weather stressful for fish? I'm sure it is. But moving fish from outdoors to indoors is said to be stressful, too, and yet lots of ponders do it as a routine practice. In a perfect world our fish would experience no stress. In the real world, we can only minimize it as much as possible.

As for deeper being better - we met a man in a pond store who was rebuilding his pond. His original pond was 4x4 and nearly six feet deep. Time after time his fish died. He determined from his experience that surface area is also an important factor in allowing your pond to off-gas. (He was forced to rebuild when the sidewalls started collapsing - digging a hole that deep isn't necessarily the safest thing to do.)

As to pond depths, This from Auburn University College of Agriculture:
-Fishery Ponds-
"Ponds thermally stratify from about 1.2 m (4 feet) water depth downwards. This means that the temperature and quality of the top 1.2 m (4 feet) of water will be distinctly different from that of the water below 1.2 meters (4 feet)deep. When the pond is deeper than 2 meters, the total volume of bottom zero-oxygen water is greater than that of the water containing oxygen.........Therefore, there is no added advantage in having a pond with a water depth greater than 1.2 m(4 feet).
The Minimum Water Depth in a pond should be not less than 60 cm.(2 feet)"

Regarding surface area to depth ratio, I have always seen a 4 to 1 ratio recommended. This allows sufficient surface area for gas exchange to support the volume of water..

 

[Paul Buccetti]

Thank you all again. This is an interesting debate. To answer the question about the pond freezing over, except for near the floating heater it did but it has every year. This weather this year in CT is ridiculous. As someone pointed out, it's been the coldest on record and the most continuous below freezing (even below 0F). I will have to consider that it will be that way or worse in the future.

Digging a bigger pond has been on my list for several years and not that I wanted this to be the reason, I hopefully will get to it this year. I'll have to check out the local zoning laws because I believe there is a limit to how deep the pond can be without it being fenced in. Probably the most discouraging thing I've read is according to the experts, my pond was only big enough for one koi. I don't think I have that much will power!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Probably the most discouraging thing I've read is according to the experts, my pond was only big enough for one koi. I don't think I have that much will power!

And that is the subject of another debate!!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Regarding surface area to depth ratio, I have always seen a 4 to 1 ratio recommended. This allows sufficient surface area for gas exchange to support the volume of water..

Major, MAJOR typo! This should read 40 to 1 and I should quit posting comments late at night when I should be in bed!! LOL!

 

[j.w]

Yep I think legally your pond can only be 2ft deep w/o a fence around it. Mine has a fence but prolly not up to code fence.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Yep I think legally your pond can only be 2ft deep w/o a fence around it. Mine has a fence but prolly not up to code fence.

Depends on the Municipality. In my area, there are NO codes/regulations for building ponds, only swimming pools.

 

[brokensword]

Major, MAJOR typo! This should read 40 to 1 and I should quit posting comments late at night when I should be in bed!! LOL!

Meyer:

is this number with or without a waterfall in operation, as I would think a waterfall would help aeration. Are there any numbers in this regard? I know, hard to quantify waterfalls unless it's strictly a gph number but I figure just like the pond, the waterfall surface (area? volume of water per hour? etc) should play a role.




Like many, I think, I am of the opinion that depth plays a role along with surface area; that is, if you're lacking in one area, augment it! I'm sure if you're worried about temp, add a heater; if oxygen, provide more surface area or aerate; if overpopulated, filtration serviced larger and more often. Providing more oxygen by whatever means, should be in order, esp if you're dancing on the danger side re fish load/adequate pond parameters and have cold winters! The first couple of years, I used only an airline to keep the ice from completely freezing over. I'd say my pond probably is under-surface-aread though proper depth. Since there's more dissolved oxygen in the colder water, I figure it's the release of toxins in the form of any decaying matter that robs the water of some of this available O2, that along with the fact that once you get over 5" of snow cover, the algae suffers below due to lack of light, further reducing the oxygen available. Saying all this, in the past few years, I've lost only a handful of fish (small/med goldfish, no large ones; I have no koi) even as I know I'm now overpopulated (>80) re all the numbers.

But I figure something I'm doing is compensating for the overages, most likely the bog+waterfall in the summer and the relatively few leaves/organic matter that get into the pond (my pond is enclosed) + keeping the ice open, in the winter (this year, a pond breather as my airline froze up at the end of last year and again at the beginning of this one).

For me, I like that I actually do very little to keep these conditions as once set up, there is no maintenance with either waterfall or bog (so far!). And keeping a hole open for any gassing off is also easy, though I did have to get a trough heater just in case I needed to open a hole that froze unexpectedly. Having my pond entirely enclosed has really cut down on so many typical pond maladies, something I didn't plan on (for those reasons) but surely has been a blessing.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Also may be a good idea to check with your home owners insurance before deciding to install or enlarge a pond.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Meyer:

is this number with or without a waterfall in operation, as I would think a waterfall would help aeration. Are there any numbers in this regard? I know, hard to quantify waterfalls unless it's strictly a gph number but I figure just like the pond, the waterfall surface (area? volume of water per hour? etc) should play a role.




Like many, I think, I am of the opinion that depth plays a role along with surface area; that is, if you're lacking in one area, augment it! I'm sure if you're worried about temp, add a heater; if oxygen, provide more surface area or aerate; if overpopulated, filtration serviced larger and more often. Providing more oxygen by whatever means, should be in order, esp if you're dancing on the danger side re fish load/adequate pond parameters and have cold winters! The first couple of years, I used only an airline to keep the ice from completely freezing over. I'd say my pond probably is under-surface-aread though proper depth. Since there's more dissolved oxygen in the colder water, I figure it's the release of toxins in the form of any decaying matter that robs the water of some of this available O2, that along with the fact that once you get over 5" of snow cover, the algae suffers below due to lack of light, further reducing the oxygen available. Saying all this, in the past few years, I've lost only a handful of fish (small/med goldfish, no large ones; I have no koi) even as I know I'm now overpopulated (>80) re all the numbers.

But I figure something I'm doing is compensating for the overages, most likely the bog+waterfall in the summer and the relatively few leaves/organic matter that get into the pond (my pond is enclosed) + keeping the ice open, in the winter (this year, a pond breather as my airline froze up at the end of last year and again at the beginning of this one).

For me, I like that I actually do very little to keep these conditions as once set up, there is no maintenance with either waterfall or bog (so far!). And keeping a hole open for any gassing off is also easy, though I did have to get a trough heater just in case I needed to open a hole that froze unexpectedly. Having my pond entirely enclosed has really cut down on so many typical pond maladies, something I didn't plan on (for those reasons) but surely has been a blessing.

Your pond, because it is enclosed, is an exception to the rule. Basically because you are preventing any elevated BOD (biological oxygen demand) caused by leaves, twigs, grass clipping, pollen, etc. that the usual garden pond may accumulate.

A waterfall will certainly add Oxygen to the water (a stream is much better). How much will depend on temperature flow rate (GPH), width of the waterfall, type of waterfall (sheet or cascade), height of waterfall and the current oxygen content of the water. Oxygen absorption by water is directly related to the amount of water surface area. If more area can be exposed either by a waterfall, stream, aerator or just the wind then Oxygen levels will be higher. As relates to Oxygen, nothing is gained by depth. If BOD and COD (chemical oxygen demand) are high, artificial measures to maintain suitable Oxygen levels may be required even to the extent of pure Oxygen injection.

 

[brokensword]

Thanks, Meyer; can you continue the waterfall specs discussion by expanding more on what you posted? I.E., which is better; the sheet or cascade? How/can you measure this? Is there some sort of formula that approximates how to expand a waterfall to incorporate these numbers? And does height help (I'd assume so as more surface area at least). Is there an optimum re flow rate? Faster, slower (I'd lean this way, but maybe not?) And same with the stream; fast/slow--any particulars? Better to have it rock bottomed or bare? See? You've opened up some new cans of worms, methinks!

Btw, I do have a stream but it's very short (approx 5', about 18" wide, 8" deepest, but was thinking of adding another stream that would wind through my existing vegetation and link to the pond, so you've given me more reason to consider this!)