Koi dirtier than goldfish...

[JohnHuff]

I've been reading a lot of threads recently and always see this statement come up. However, the pond is more or less a closed system and if the amount of food/organics you put in is a constant, it shouldn't matter what kind fish digests it, right? After all, my Mom always says my sh*t isn't different from anyone elses' and neither should a koi's.

To put it another way, a handful of food will contain the same amount of N, C, H, etc. no matter what. So why would a koi produce "more" waste, since the amount of atoms in that handful of food doesn't change.

I'm expecting that one response would be koi eat more, but in my experience, it comes down to the fish. Every fish that I've seen is different and I haven't seen koi eat more than any other type.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I've been reading a lot of threads recently and always see this statement come up. However, the pond is more or less a closed system and if the amount of food/organics you put in is a constant, it shouldn't matter what kind fish digests it, right? After all, my Mom always says my sh*t isn't different from anyone elses' and neither should a koi's.

To put it another way, a handful of food will contain the same amount of N, C, H, etc. no matter what. So why would a koi produce "more" waste, since the amount of atoms in that handful of food doesn't change.

I'm expecting that one response would be koi eat more, but in my experience, it comes down to the fish. Every fish that I've seen is different and I haven't seen koi eat more than any other type.

I have.
Currently I have a large school of mostly comet type goldfish, and only two koi that are about the same size as my largest goldfish.
It has always appeared to me that, not only do koi seem to pursue food more aggressively and more successfully because of their vacuum like mouths, they also seem to be more persistent. After the initial feeding frenzy has subsided and the majority of fish have had their fill, if there is any food left floating around, or if I throw a little extra one the pond, I've noticed it always seems to be the koi who clean most of it up.
That's the way it appears anyway, I guess to scientifically prove it I'd have to video the feeding cycle and slow the video down and count out exactly how much is getting eaten, and by who.

 

[adavisus]

koi can grow a foot longer per year...

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[Dave 54]

Golldfish have stomachs where they can absorb their food leaving much less in the way of poo, which sadly is something a koi doesnt have the luxury of........
Koi instead have just an intestinal tract to get their nuitrents vitamins etc from food from, so tend to pass more out of the back end,
The larger the koi the larger the poo now think if your pond is stocked soley with koi,then the deritus build up will be far greater than that of the goldfish pond.
Which is on of the reasons we employ a 4" bottom drain which empties into our vortex, then passes on through two more chambers with jap matting.
These two chambers have the job of catching finer bits that have got through the initial vortex.
The water before arriving at the bio filter should be just that water.
The bio filter as we know is work engine of the pond so to speak polishes off anything minute that is left.
The two chambers after the votrtex have another important role to play and that is the build up of good healthy bacteria that help break down any larger bits the matting has caught.
When I empty these chamners every so often to clean you'll find in the bottom a liquid gunge of foul smelling liquid which we then flush out of the system before cleaning the matting and putting it back in the chamber to resume its job.

rgrds

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

I don't think goldfish have stomachs either.
My Koi eats waaaay more than my goldfish.

 

[capewind]

My vote is bigger fish simply eat more food and produce more waste.

 

[Dave 54]

I don't think goldfish have stomachs either.
My Koi eats waaaay more than my goldfish.

I'm affraid your wrong on that Goldfish do indeed have a stomach check out a biopsy drawing of the make up of a goldfish you'll see that the stomach is clearly shown and titled .
Capwind you are indeed correct on that issue, the larger the koi, the more food they take in thus there is the greater the waste product at the other end of the process.
With the stomach even the larger goldfish producess less waste than a large koi.

 

[Jason]

I heard a Goldfish Stomach is usually the size of their Eye? Yes the Koi I have do attack food more aggressively and eat whatever the other goldfish don't touch :beer:

 

[sissy]

koi get larger maybe that is it .I know a 2 foot koi verses and 6 inch goldfish when i see it in my pond . :cheerful: size counts

 

[JohnHuff]

Well, it seems the solution is a simple one. Simply feed less food and you get less waste. I've never seen on the boards a fish that died of starvation!

 

[sissy]

mine haven't and they get fed only 3 or 4 times a week .There is plenty for them to eat in the pond ,if it is good enough for tadpoles then it is good enough for them .They are lucky they get fed that much because sometimes i forget .Fish don't look unhealthy and i think feeding less adds to my water quality .I have seen ponds that the people feed there fish every day and number one complaint is water quality .The guy Meant who introduced me to haydite only feeds his fish once a week .He does nothing but filters the water and has for over 20 years .But try to find haydite here .GEEZE

 

[GreatDanesDad]

There is another factor here that may be important in the koi vs GF conversation. I only have koi so I have no real referance, but who is more active? Koi or GF. If a GF is more active than a koi, then calories and food would be utilized more efficently by the body. Right?

Goldfish have stomachs where they can absorb their food leaving much less in the way of poo, which sadly is something a koi doesnt have the luxury of........
Koi instead have just an intestinal tract to get their nuitrents vitamins etc from food from, so tend to pass more out of the back end,
The larger the koi the larger the poo now think if your pond is stocked soley with koi,then the deritus build up will be far greater than that of the goldfish pond.

I Agree with Dave. I have seen these comments on other sites, forums, and been told by my mentors the same thing. This led me to triple my origional filter plans, because we have such extreme heat here and I like to feed my fish. I have 8, five month old, fish that have grown from fingerlings to 8 inches long from June to today.

Bottom line, I believe that per inch of fish for the same amount of food, you would get a simular "output". However per inch of fish, koi will more aggressivly feed and create more waste. So likely if you are feeding koi and GF at the same time and only feed what they can eat in 5 min, the koi would be getting more food and crapping more, even if the fish is the same size.

If the above quote is correct (as I suspect it is), a koi would have to eat more (and expell more waste) to get the same nutritional value as a GF eating less.

 

[Dave 54]

Well, it seems the solution is a simple one. Simply feed less food and you get less waste. I've never seen on the boards a fish that died of starvation!

Koi have to take on body weight through the season so that they can approach and go through the winter without having anything to eat, if they dont take enough onboard then it lessens their chances of getting though it.espeacially if the pond is unheated.
The Japanese breeders take all their koi indoors during the winter and most of us in the koi world in one way or another heat our water enabling them to survive on less food than they would normally eat i;e once a day, over that of 4 times a day in the summer months.

rgrds

Dave

 

[JohnHuff]

However, the fact remains that if I put into the closed system 4oz of food per day as an example, the amount of nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen, etc. in that 4ozs will be in the pond no matter who utilizes it, whether it's digested or wasted.

If no one eats it and it's all wasted, it's still the same amount of N, C, H, etc. in the pond.
If koi eats it, it's still the same amount of N, C, H, etc. in the pond.
If gf eats it, it's still the same amount of N, C, H, etc. in the pond.

So please explain to me, how a koi makes more nitrogen, carbon or hydrogen atoms from a 4oz handful of food than a gf would? A koi can't make more N, C, or H atoms. The number of atoms in that 4oz of food remains the same.

There is another factor here that may be important in the koi vs GF conversation. I only have koi so I have no real referance, but who is more active? Koi or GF. If a GF is more active than a koi, then calories and food would be utilized more efficently by the body. Right?


I Agree with Dave. I have seen these comments on other sites, forums, and been told by my mentors the same thing. This led me to triple my origional filter plans, because we have such extreme heat here and I like to feed my fish. I have 8, five month old, fish that have grown from fingerlings to 8 inches long from June to today.

Bottom line, I believe that per inch of fish for the same amount of food, you would get a simular "output". However per inch of fish, koi will more aggressivly feed and create more waste. So likely if you are feeding koi and GF at the same time and only feed what they can eat in 5 min, the koi would be getting more food and crapping more, even if the fish is the same size.

If the above quote is correct (as I suspect it is), a koi would have to eat more (and expell more waste) to get the same nutritional value as a GF eating less.

 

[sissy]

I have 2 koi and the rest are goldfish and yep gold fish are more active when I sit and stare at them and aggie and bert the koi are just floating around and goldfish are back and forth and all around and never stop .A ripple in the water or the sight of me the goldfish are on the move .