lockdown

[Lisak1]

That's not true. A lockdown not only works toward eliminating the virus, but also gets ahead of all other areas of health that are negatively impacted by the virus; all the things you listed.

Explain how that works if you would. Also - define "hard lockdown".

 

[cas]

I just want to say that my garden looked the best ever this year with all the extra time I spent in it!

 

[Lisak1]

And on a related note - to suggest we haven't flattened the curve is untrue. Here's Chicago - the curve has been flat for months. But instead of focusing on deaths and hospitalizations, they have shifted to a new metric and want us to focus on positivity rates, which - if that's your chosen metric - then let's assume the rising rate of cases has bottomed out the death rate. I'll go with that. More people who've been exposed, lower percentage of hospitalizations and reduced death rate - sounds like a win-win-win to me.

Here's the US - "cases" rising. Death rate not following the spikes. All good news - but you'll never hear it if you don't go looking for it yourself.

 

[JBtheExplorer]

they have shifted to a new metric and want us to focus on positivity rates,

That's not a shift. That was a main focus from the start.

but you'll never hear it if you don't go looking for it yourself.

That's not true. I know for a fact that cable news (MSNBC, CNN) shows the death rate all the time, and comments that it's good news that it isn't going up at the same rate as infections. Local news shows it, too. It's not something you have to go looking for. If you watch news or read news, it's available to see.

Explain how that works if you would.

Death of a loved one causes depression.
Fear that a loved one might get it or does have it causes anxiety and depression.
Both can lead to suicide attempts or drug overdoses.

Also - define "hard lockdown".

Defining hard lockdown would require me to take quite a bit of time to type out every step of what we should've done and what we didn't do, how every state handled things differently, and how some didn't want to handle it at all, and I honestly have no interest in taking the time to do that just to receive a new "life your life, no lockdowns" response. If I felt that you were at least taking what I was saying into consideration, it'd be worth it, but that's not the case. I've stated my feelings on the subject, and I'm done.

 

[Mike in Vermont]

I'm OK with lockdowns for health purposes, not because I already stay home. That doesn't make it any easier on me. There are a few things I really look forward to all year long that I didn't get to do this year. I spent all winter waiting and dreaming of those events to finally get here, and then to have everything cancelled really put me in a dark place. This has been an extremely difficult year for me. Even at home, I lost NASCAR for two months. It sounds like something so small, but that's not the case for me. That was rough. I can't overstate it enough. This year has been awful.

there are events I look forward to every year as well. To name a few...
Vermont Dairy Festival
Vermont Maple Sugar festival
Champlain Valley Fair
I also missed not going out to restaurants, or visiting with friends ect... Then, I see events like Sturgis and think how unfair it is, that 250K people get together for a party that will aid to lengthen my time of missing out on things I want to do. Not to mention infecting others, and causing them to lose their lives. Luckily, my state has fared better than all the rest but, it does come with a price. A small one, all things considered.

 

[Lisak1]

That's not a shift. That was a main focus from the start.

We were expressly told the goal of "flattening the curve" was to slow the spread to allow the medical system to keep pace. Hospitalizations and deaths have not kept pace with the positivity rate, which again is good news.

Death of a loved one causes depression.
Fear that a loved one might get it or does have it causes anxiety and depression.
Both can lead to suicide attempts or drug overdoses.

Lockdown ends death? People still die of other causes, locked down or not. And the evidence shows plenty have died as a result of lockdowns.
We should only fear death by covid? Seems shortsighted. Plenty of other things to fear if that's how one views the world. The fear of Covid is hugely overblown, statistically speaking. Perhaps if the media spent more time sharing the positive trends the fear would diminish.

Defining hard lockdown would require me to take quite a bit of time

Really? I'll define it in a few short words - no interaction with anyone from outside your home for a prescribed period of time. Hard lockdown.

And I certainly do take into consideration what you say. I wouldn't engage in a conversation if I wasn't interested in what others think or say. That doesn't mean I agree. But if you don't feel people who think like me are worth your time, that's fine. Certainly not the first time I've been told that.

Here's an article by an economist for anyone who might be interested in another view on lockdowns:

Lockdowns Recreated a Pre-Modern Caste System

"The poor and the working class are the new unclean, while the professional class enjoys the luxury of waiting the pandemic out, interacting only with disease-free laptops. The Zoom call is the 21st century equivalent of the manor estate on the hill, a way to interact with others while avoiding...

www.aier.org

 

[GBBUDD]

I'm OK with lockdowns for health purposes, not because I already stay home. That doesn't make it any easier on me. There are a few things I really look forward to all year long that I didn't get to do this year. I spent all winter waiting and dreaming of those events to finally get here, and then to have everything cancelled really put me in a dark place. This has been an extremely difficult year for me. Even at home, I lost NASCAR for two months. It sounds like something so small, but that's not the case for me. That was rough. I can't overstate it enough. This year has been awful.

Thats just it though jb. Whole covid is no joke neither is Tb the Measles or even Small pox which are all coming back to America. The cure can not be worse then the cause. And that's exactly what we are doing to our selves. I am sorry for your loss no matter how a love one leaves us its never easy.
This virus has destroyed so many and so much. Look at our daily lives literally people under 50 get the covid battle it and move on . Yes some rare cases are being left with lingering effects . Comparable to pneumonia. I have two underlying conditions and have been surrounded by covid this entire time. I belive I already had it I n the beginning and got through it. But in my travels and I'm not talking to the grocery store. 6 STATES by road just last week I am seeing more and more homeless folks on the streets. Worst part is they are not your 23 year old drug addicts who travel in groups . But they are older 50s 60s men and women of all race and colors. This has to stop we need to take our lumps and work through it.
If we want to be serious about this virus we would all be working out, eating better to be in better shape to confront the virus. It has already showed its face and that is it is hard on those who are weaker. The youth and those in good shape fight through it. It doesn't matter what our jobs are getting out of the house is more exercise over all then most get hanging at the house.
There is no perfect solution here but we have already tried burying our heads in the sand that did almost nothing.
With today's open world even shutting down in the first signs is probably too late with 23 hours of any outbreak it can be on the other side of the world. And that has stops where you walk through the airport and its over they walk by some heading in the complete opposite direction and so on . Full respirators , tyveck suites , and disposal of both with One time use. Is the only way something like this can be controlled. We learned long ago when the flue came around to take precautions but there was no guarantee of success.

 

[JBtheExplorer]

The cure can not be worse then the cause

What we've dealt with for 8 months and counting is far worse than a 6 or 8 week lockdown would've been in spring. We screwed up. It's too late to lock down now. That time is long gone. We failed.

But if you don't feel people who think like me are worth your time, that's fine.

Why are you taking it personally?

The fact is, it's the same thing that has been debated and argued across the country for 8 months. There's no point for me to dive into this debate when it's all a repeat of things that I know you've heard dozens of times, if not more. It didn't change your mind before, and it won't change it now. I don't have the energy to debate you. 230,000 deaths and counting, and it could've been FAR fewer. That's all I have left to say.

I'm peacefully ending my side of this conversation.


Don't take things personally.

 

[Lisak1]

Well I will if I want to.

Don't take things personally.

Oh, no worries. I don't.

We were told 2.2 million people would die if we didn't shut down the country. We did and, using that math, saved 2 million lives. I'd count that as a victory. If you're suggesting there was a scenario in which not one single person would die of COVID, then that's pure politics.

Of greater interest to me is the excess mortality rate of 299,000 Americans this year. It's estimated 2/3 of those are directly attributed to COVID. What about the rest of them?

 

[yorkshire pudding]

im tapping out too, this isnt what i thought it would be when i started this thread.

 

[addy1]

im tapping out too, this isnt what i thought it would be when i started this thread.

It is a hot topic just like politics. Keep in touch as time goes on. People will not change their minds, opinions on hot topics, usually.

 

[Lisak1]

im tapping out too, this isnt what i thought it would be when i started this thread.

Sorry @yorkshire pudding - just re-read your original post and don't really get a good sense for what type of discussion you were looking for. As with most public forums, just about anything can happen!

I guess I don't agree that people can't change their minds. My opinion of Covid and how it's been handled has definitely evolved over the last number of months. Originally I was extremely concerned about what we were facing and felt we were taking the prudent approach by sheltering at home. I was in agreement with the "15 days to flatten the curve" concept, as it made good sense to give our medical systems time to gear up for what might be coming.

When I started to question things was when I started seeing celebrities promoting "#saferathome" and "wear a mask" - from their multimillion dollar mansions with full sized gyms and pools and hot tubs and ... well. You get the drift. Not exactly what the majority of people were experiencing by staying at home. Dig a bit deeper and you learn they were all paid to promote Covid "safety". Then I saw hashtags start to pop up - that reeks of organized marketing. My own small town posted banners all over to remind us we were "#allinthistogether". I started asking myself - who's behind this marketing scheme? And if this is as bad as they claim it is, would we really need to be selling it this hard to people? And then "flatten the curve" became "bend the curve" which lead to "crush the curve" and finally - "curve? Who said anything about a curve? We need to ERADICATE THE VIRUS". And right then I knew... something bigger was at play here.

And that's how my mind works - question everything. Accept nothing at face value. Dig and read and check things out for myself. I like primary sources and seeing data and reading different people's analysis of what they're seeing. And whenever you wonder why someone is doing something - follow the money. Most answers can be found at the end of that particular rainbow.

 

[yorkshire pudding]

lisak1 i just wanted a "normal" discussion and to find out different peoples points of view, i didnt need lectures and charts,graphs i can get that from my govt, i just wanted to chat. if anyone was upset by my posting "a thread" then that was never my intention and im sorry, at the end of the day i just wanted to chat/discuss with the friendly people on this forum. i was in the military for a long time (30 years) and they are not too hot on independent thought, so what i think might be normal thought is totally irrational to others.you are obviously a passionate educated lady and i suppose i should be pleased that i got such an in depth response from you, suppose i should be more careful what i ask for in future. take care and stay safe

 

[Lisak1]

Sorry if you thought I was lecturing - that was never my intent. I'm a data driven person - I like to know the what, where, when, why, and how.

I am, however, a very friendly person! Just overly inquisitive. And perhaps an oversharer.

Carry on. I'll stay off your thread.

 

[JamieB]

I’m really not impressed with how things are being handled where I work. Gas station- hundred interactions daily, they put up a very limited sneeze guard plexiglass thing by the register about a month into this, masks are currently required, along with daily temps checking, but as we have to make coffee, handle money, stock cups, lids, products, clean, etc, we spend just as much time away from the sneeze guard as we do behind it. There is no requirement for hand washing except after using the rest room, we weren’t told when a co worker was exposed, she has family members coming in frequently, despite that they should be on qt too. So I figure I’ll be exposed at some point if I haven’t been already