Ok, NOW WHAT DO I DO?

[GreatDanesDad]

Ok, so it has been around 6 months since I have posted. I have been wrapped up in other things and the pond has taken a back seat, but no more. For anyone that remembers my original concept is nothing like most pond shapes and ideas. It is meant to look a little modern and really doesn’t have a “natural”, look although it is all constructed out of wood and stone. The Pond is L shaped with a an 8x8x4 section and a 5x5x2 section making up the bottom of the L and a 11x2x2 “river” making up the rest. At my estimates that is between 2100 gallons and 2500. A 5000 GPH pump sucks water out of a recess in the 8x8 section and runs it to a 55 gallon barrel that dumps into a 30 gallon waterfall basin that then overflows into the river. The filter is homemade. The water runs into the bottom of the filter where it is empty so it can swirl in a vortex, then as it fills and raises at the 8 inch mark there is a screen with large rocks, then a screen with thick scrub pads, then a layer of medium sized rocks, then thick foam, then small rocks and gravel, and then fine foam. It is topped with large rocks again, to hold it all down, because lots of it likes to float.

Inside the L is a 10x8 platform for sitting and a 10x3 area for planting. There will be a bridge across the river to get to the sitting area. Outside the L is a large L shaped planting area that follows the contour of the pond. It is 2 feet taller than the water’s edge. Over the top of the whole thing is a gazebo, in an attempt to cool it down. (This is in the PHX area, very hot summers) Hopefully the gazebo and the planting box will keep the birds out. It is not really possible bigger birds to get to the water’s edge.

Finally I had used a thick liner when I originally built the pool, but hated the way a black liner looked. Yes, I do understand that everything will get coated with algae at some point. If you look at the pictures, you can see that I have laid flagstone throughout the entire pond. This was the big endeavor this spring. In my opinion it looks amazing.

So back to the what now part, I have had my filter running for about a week. Used a de-chlorinator and want to add some fish to get the biological filtering going, before I get real koi or expensive fish. My plan is to add this http://www.tricker.com/Category/economicalfishcollections to my pond to get it started.

This is where I want opinions, do I need to put in a pea gravel bottom? Can I get away without any plants in the water, and just feed my fish? I don’t like the idea that the plants can have diseases (just like introducing new fish). What is the warmest temperature butterfly koi do well? What else do I need to do to my water before I add fish? Recommendations on tester kits? Recommendation on food? I was told to use a food with penicillin to start with? What kinds of fish would you recommend other than Koi? Any thoughts? I have attached a few pics and here is a link to the short crappy resolution youtube (I will update soon)

. If you have questions on how I did anything let me know, I probably have a picture diary of exactly how I have built things.

Thank you,
DaneDad

 

[shakaho]

Very attractive, and original. No to pea gravel. No need for plants if you don't want them.

 

[nyteyz]

I agrre with shakaho, don't use pea gravel it'll cause disease issuse down the track. You can 'feed' your pond with out putting fish in it, this will get the bio going in the filter.

 

[GreatDanesDad]

I agrre with shakaho, don't use pea gravel it'll cause disease issuse down the track. You can 'feed' your pond with out putting fish in it, this will get the bio going in the filter.

Can you explain this a little more? "feed"

 

[jupiter1]

Can you explain this a little more? "feed"

I think nyteyz means you can feed your filter . Treat it with readly available bacteria to get it going . Such as http://www.webbsonline.com/Category/Beneficial-Bacteria

 

[HTH]

Sure

Normally the bio filter consumes the waste the fish will generate from the food they eat. If you toss the food in the pond without fish the food breaks down and the bio filter will act on it. The process is called fishless cycling. The filter may still do a little adjustment when you add the fish but it will be very mild compared to cycling the pond with the fish in it.

And you have a 3rd vote for no gravel.

Nice work.

 

[Mmathis]

Wow, nice work and the end result there is so very pretty! I'm amazed at how neat & orderly your construction process was. Oh, and when I first looked at pic #2, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what you were doing with a COW in your pond!

I vote "no" to the gravel bottom. But please be open to the idea of plants. You don't have to go all out, and they are very nice -- I think they soften the pond. From what I've been reading, yes plants can introduce unwanted things into the pond, but it sounds easier to clean up the plants than it is to quarantine fish. But if you go with Koi, no plants (they tear them up).

I think they are referring to a "fishless cycling," where you use regular ammonia to get the bacteria going ("feed" it, them, whatever.....). I'm sure someone will explain, or you can do a search.

 

[crsublette]

Very nice. You did an excellent job.

So back to the what now part, I have had my filter running for about a week. Used a de-chlorinator and want to add some fish to get the biological filtering going, before I get real koi or expensive fish. My plan is to add this http://www.tricker.com/Category/economicalfishcollections to my pond to get it started.

Lets first understand what you are attempting to do. You are attempting to grow an autotroph bacteria colony. Autotroph bacteria is a category of bacteria that is fed by ammonia and is what we want as the main actors in the biofilter to conduct the nitrification cycle, that is converting ammonia to nitrite then nitrite to nitrate. How do you know if the autotroph colony as grown big enough to support koi? Well, ya really don't know until ya actually get your koi in there, but we can grow these autotroph colonies ahead of time by using two methods. One method is using cheap, hardy smaller gold fish to provide the low doses of ammonia to feed and grow the autotroph colony. Second method is using high doses of ammonium hydoroxide (no additives), also called the "fishless cycling", to feed and grow the autotroph colony.

The process speed of jumpstarting your pond's bio-filter is dependent on many variables, whereas the two most important is KH levels and water temperature. KH is the first most important abbreviation that you need to absorb into your knowledge base. KH is short hand for "total alkalinity" or, in our pond context, "carbonate hardness", but the abbreviation is more than suitable to be used in our context of ponding. KH can become quite complicated in water chemistry and is one of the primary variables that determine your pH, but all you need to know about KH is that it essentially is the "fuel" for your bio-filter's bacteria. The autroph bacteria perform their best when the KH is up to near 11 drops (or 200ppm); these numbers might not mean anything to you right now, but they will here in a bit. If KH hits zero, then your bio-filter bacteria will start to shutdown. Water temperature also impacts the performance of your bacter where they shutdown when the water is 32*F or 120*F, perform their best at 77~86*F, and only at 50% growth performance at around 64*F.

The first method is slow and the autotroph colony will only grow to the size big enough to accomodate the smaller gold fish. So, when you put a higher fish stock density or bigger koi, then there is still some "catch up" that the autotroph bacteria colony has to grow so it can consume 100% of the ammonia released by the higher fish stock density or bigger koi. This can possibly cause a slight ammonia or nitrite spike, but the spike will not be anywhere near as bad compared to doing nothing.

The second method is much faster since you are providing the ammonia rather than waiting for for the smaller gold fish to create it. This second method is called a "fishless cycling" and you do not want any fish in the pond while doing it since the high level of ammonia to grow your autotroph bacteria will be poisonous to the fish in the pond.

Personally, I am against using fish to jumpstart a pond. All fish contribute their own parasites and illnesses to ponds. This is a major reason why ponderers quarantine new fish for at least a few weeks even when they know they are receiving their fish from a reputable breeder or dealer.

The bacteria you need to "jumpstart cycling" your pond is already present in the environment around you. The bacteria products that are sold are simply just trying to significantly increase the population count.

To help you understand your pond's ecosystem, check out the thread, story on your pond's ecosystem. I apologize for this thread and the hyperlinks in it give a rather advanced hobbyst explanation.

To help you understand the "fishless cycling" approach, I found severaly hyperlinks helpful to me and the last one contains a post from me where I try to summarize what I have done.

Ammonia Instructions for a Fishless Cycle
Brands of ammonia to use and to avoid for fishless cycling
Fishless Cycle question
Ways to decrease cycling time
When can I start adding fishies (post#13)

Here are a couple other threads I think you need to read to help you understand KH and help you realize why it is so important.

understanding API water test results
Pond world Virgin
High pH level!
Woke up to dead koi. 1 still alive. PH crash.


Best ya can do is to read and ask questions.

 

[crsublette]

So back to the what now part, I have had my filter running for about a week. Used a de-chlorinator and want to add some fish to get the biological filtering going, before I get real koi or expensive fish. My plan is to add this http://www.tricker.com/Category/economicalfishcollections to my pond to get it started.

Rather than using a de-chlorinator product, you might want to look into using a filter you connect to your hose. Personally, I think these type of filters are the safer route to go.

This is where I want opinions, 1) do I need to put in a pea gravel bottom? 2) Can I get away without any plants in the water, and just feed my fish? 3) I don’t like the idea that the plants can have diseases (just like introducing new fish). 4) What is the warmest temperature butterfly koi do well? 5) What else do I need to do to my water before I add fish? 6) Recommendations on tester kits? 7) Recommendation on food? I was told to use a food with penicillin to start with? 8) What kinds of fish would you recommend other than Koi? 9) Any thoughts? I have attached a few pics and here is a link to the short crappy resolution youtube (I will update soon)

. If you have questions on how I did anything let me know, I probably have a picture diary of exactly how I have built things.

Thank you,
DaneDad

1) I vote NO. Why? Read the thread, Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?.

2) Yes, you do not need plants in your water, but they are excellent filters to absorb the Nitrates, they help to cool the water, and the plant roots excrete agglutinin's that helps to sink small floating debris particles in the water making your water more clear. If you are going to have koi, then you might need to think about building some floating planter rings to protect the plant's roots from the koi.

3) With plants, be sure you know who you are buying from and that they have a good reputation. If you are still concerned, then you can do a 30 minute dip into a Potassium permangate (PP) water solution to sterilize the plant's roots without killing them, but I don't think this works for fully submersed aquatic plants since their leaves are much more fragile. I have never done this, but I have read of pond plant farms doing this before they ship the plants to retailers. Be extremely careful with PP and wear protective fully body and eye gear; it is extremely corrosive and a very strong oxidizer.

4) Just through the grapevine, I have been told they are no different than your standard fin koi. So, if your water temperatures do get very warm, such as in the 90 degree range, then make sure you have plenty of aeration through various air diffusers since warmer water holds less oxygen.

5) Test your KH. Test your source water. See if you can get a water test report from your city's water processing plant; this is public information so all you have to do is ask. Be proactive. Learn and understand what you can now before problems occur in the pond. When you are doing water changes, you are essentially diluting your pond water to emulate your source water. If your source water is not good, then you might need to learn how to manage the pond without water changes, which is possible, or obtain another source of water.

6) 3 test kits. 1) API Master Freshwater test kit. 2) API KH test kit. 3) Chlorine or chloramine test kit (typically found at pool stores or home depots). This is important to know since some de-chlorinator solutions require you to know the PPM of chlorine or chloramine present in the water.

7) This is where I am lazy. :redface: I just use the PetsMart stuff, which is not the best. The high quality nutritional stuff is quite expensive, but I am told it is well worth it. I do know you do not want to always use the food with anti-biotics since stuff can eventually become immune to the anti-biotics if you use it too much. There is also fish food that have probiotics in them to help the fish digest. Eventually I am going to use something better. Others might be able to help you better on this.

8) Kinds of fish depends on how cold your water will reach in the winter. Down in Florida, I have seen some folk put some neat freshwater tropical fish in the pond. You might want to think about some fish to control your goldfish population by having other fish that eat the eggs or small fry.

I have never used any fish for population control so this is a new thing to me. This year I am going to try some weather loaches and male pumpkinseed sunfish. Careful with the sunfish since these sunfish can multiply like crazy as well; I have been recommended to only have 1 sunfish or more if you are absolutely positive on the gender; other wise, you might need to get a channel catfish to control the sunfish population.

To help you control algae, I have been doing some reading into the Chinese High Fin Banded Sharks (Myxocyprinus asiaticus). I don't know much about this toothless algae eating shark. I was told about it from a good fella, that I view as a mentor in this pond hobby, so I trust his recommendation. Eventhough it is somewhat of a tropical fish, he has had them survive the cold water temperatures just as well as his koi. He also recommends keeping them in a group of three or more. I need to do more reading into them, but I found it quite interesting.

9) I am a complete newb when it comes to concrete and construction. So, a couple questions for ya about your pond build...

Did you consider using backing board to help stabilize your flagstone?? What did you use, mortar or concrete or some other mix?? Any advice or helpful tips??

 

[sissy]

you can buy a well pump filter and put a charcoal filter in it and run the water slow
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[crsublette]

I was doing some googling to see what other folk do to quarantine their pond plants and found an interesting thread. Quarantining Pond plants

 

[Mmathis]

So, PP not bleach? Or "yes" to bleach......? I can see where one might be more effective, but what is the downside to using bleach?

 

[crsublette]

So, PP not bleach? Or "yes" to bleach......? I can see where one might be more effective, but what is the downside to using bleach?

Don't know. Personally, my opinion is I would not use bleach due to the surfactant presence. I am "told" that surfactants can be nasty if allowed to get on the fish's gills; so, if bleach was used on the plant, then I would think the plant would need to be quite thoroughly rinsed.

 

[HARO]

The availability of PP has been severely restricted up here in the Frozen North. Apparently it is used in the manufacture of crack cocaine! I don't know how easy it is to get in the US, but here you need some serious permits, if you can find it at all!
John

 

[crsublette]

That's crazy. Silly canadians. It's very easy to get here in the US, but it must be shipped as hazardous material and gotta pay a hazardous material shipping charge

It can be bought at The Chemistry Store by the pounds but, if fish are present, then we are talking dosage measurements in grams and TEAspoons.

Here's a good thread talking about its use in kill string algae. Life and Times of String Algae in My Pond. Plants are much more tolerant to PP so highers doses can be used if no fish are present.

Other interesting threads about PP usage:

PP question
PP dosage?
PP dosing calculations
Potassium Permanganate calculator

Personally, since I have not used it yet, I am still nervous about using the stuff, but it is a common practice. Just be careful with the stuff and do not use it if you are in any way not comfortable with what you're doing.