Pea Soup Gold Fish pond and Waterwall

[sissy]

If you put a pump in the middle of the pond and put a weighted down tote maybe with a cut out for a fishy hiding spot and put another tote on top with plenty of filter material in it and let the pump filter into the pond it will not make any noise .It will just run back into the pond from below the filter material and not make any noise at all .Lava rock in the top filter will weigh every thing down and hold it in place .

 

[Waterbug]

I've ordered a test kit that has PH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate, should arrive next week. Seems like I need to check the ammonia level before I do anything, don't want to clear the water only to kill the fish.

You are smarter than the average bear.

I haven't actually seen them jumping, but I heard a sort of splash once a couple of weeks ago, and then there was a dead fish in the garden.

So could be spawning. I've never seen fish actually jump when spawning, but it can get active.

How do I check the pump?

For electrical leakage? Best source of info is from aquarium hobbyists, Google "test aquarium stray electric". This wouldn't be at the top of my list. Normally the fish act frightened and hide. But frightened fish can jump.

I might be overstating the size of the fish, but I guess we do have too many, not much I can do about that now though.

Nature will take care of it. Already reduced the herd by one fish.

We don't feed the fish, figure they have plenty of things in the pond to eat, I only give them a few pellets every now and then when I went to actually see them.

It is possible the fish are looking for a better environment (more food). These fish originally followed flowing water to move to better water or for spawning. Depending on how your pump is set up the fish could be trying to swim "upstream".

Quilt batting filter looks like it works great, but to be honest I'm not sure that I would trust myself to clean it out often enough (especially after the first couple of weeks). It would probably be pretty bad to just leave it full of gunk. And presumably I would also need a trickle tower anyway to deal with the ammonia that the algae would no longer be eating? And if I do really need a quilt batting filter, can I just put it in the top of a trickle tower? Or does it need to be completely separate?

These are hit and miss. At different stages in the algae life cycle fabric filters can remove some algae. But how the fabric is configured is really important and tricky. The fabric doesn't block algae like a drinking water filter would, it kind of traps some and some gets thru. If you have too much flow the algae can wash right on thru. And as you remove algae more would just grow. Not really a very viable solution imo. I like fabric filters, but only for removing dead particles.

Would a water wall work like a trickle tower?

Yes, very well. Trickle Towers are about 30 times better at removing ammonia and nitrite than most filters.

And would it theoretically reduce the algae a bit?

Nope. Could even increase single cell algae. Algae farms use something similar to grow more algae, gets them more light.

However, if string algae starts to grow on the wall then that could produce a chemical toxic to single cell algae and the water can stay clear for months, years. But your size pond and a vertical wall can be difficult for any macro algae like string algae to get started.

 

[Waterbug]

I think there might also be a problem with the pump, there's not enough "flow" out of the fountains. Maybe the murky water is killing it? Might have to get it serviced.

FYI, you can increase O2 (all gas exchange) by removing the fountain and just letting the pump move water. This is not a big thing at all, but a pump will move more water without the fountain. I'm talking tiny differences. Leave it if you like the look or sound of the fountain.

I've put up a big outdoor umbrella over the pond, hopefully that will help in the short term, should have full shade pretty much all day.

Algae isn't overly effected by sun. Total absence of light sure. And reduced sun can reduce algae from super thick to just thick, but generally there's no big difference, your pond is still green. Algae is very efficient. Been around several billion years.

I know it's not good to have the pump off overnight, which is why I'm looking for a quieter solution to the wall fountains. Happy fish and angry neighbours is not my ideal solution.

Smart. Happy neighbors are almost as valuable as a happy wife.

Yes, a UV filter with a trickle tower (or waterwall) might be the way to go?

UV is 100% effect in 5-7 days. For your size pond I'd guess the smallest wattage would be find. I like the UV separate from the pump. You can get combo pump & UV, but if one fails you lose both. And UV can sometimes be turned off and the water stays clear. That is because the single cell algae (green water) also produce a chemical to kill string algae and other macro algae. The UV kills the single cell algae giving the macro algae a change to grow. If that happens they will keep your pond clear, but you will have to pull out the macro algae by hand normally. Buying new pond plants can introduce macro algae to a pond if you're interested.

If you install a UV I suggest adding a ball valve on the pipe either going in or out of the unit so you can control flow. In a perfect world there would be another pipe before the unit that allowed excess water to still flow, but not a huge deal. Water can be so green that some cells get thru the UV undamaged. Turning down the flow can fix that. So the test is if you don't see clearing in say 5-7 days you know something isn't right. First fix is to turn down the flow some and wait another 5-7 days. By clearing I mean you come out one morning and your jaw drops and you giggle like a school girl. Thinking maybe it's a little clearer generally isn't the sign.

Drip water changes.
Since you seem way able to understand this stuff I throw one more option at you. It would require adding an overflow. If you're using water for the landscaping you can use water from the pond instead, so you get to use the water twice. This can also remove green water, but may not always work. This would be about as good a "filter" system as you could have. In high end ponds and fish farms this is called a "flow thru" system. Here's a video on the subject.

 

[dieselplower]

I want to repeat that you need to do a large water change asap. That pond is overstocked and your levels of pollutants will be too high, i assure you.. You need fresh water in there.

 

[Waterbug]

dieselplower, this is a person new to pond keeping. Large water changes can be problematic for people new to pond keeping and without even a test kit. Large water changes can be dangerous. What happens if this pond currently has high Total Ammonia, cool water and low pH and the new water is warmer and/or high pH? The remaining ammonia converts from safe NH4 to toxic NH3 and the fish die. What if the new water is really cold? What if the new water is really low pH because the previous keeper buffered the water? On and on.

There will always be a line of people online who think they know exactly what's going on with your pond just based on a few words you provided and give you must do advice. When things go south that line gets really thin really fast. Seen it many times in forums over the years.

 

[Keith]

@sissy: It's just not a relaxing sound at all, I don't like the sound myself. The water streams drop about 2 ft and really pound the surface, it's alright during the day because there's other noise to mask it but it's very loud at night when it's the only sound. It also stirs the water up a lot. It doesn't actually "hurt", but it's uncomfortable to put my hand under the stream just before it's hitting the surface of pond because of the force of the water. I think it's just badly designed, looks nice though.

@dieselplower: No offense, but I want to actually know what the levels are, so any water change will have to wait until after my test kits have arrived and I have tested the water myself.

@Waterbug: I am definitely liking the sound of constant water change. There is a dripper system already in place that runs right past the pond on the right-hand side. Not exactly sure what to do with the overflow, could maybe feed some potplants or something, veggie garden is in raised beds that are higher than the pond which is a shame. Could maybe just put it back into the dripper system with a check valve, but would want to make sure the water is relatively clean already before I do that, clogging up the dripper system would be a major pain. Anyway it will take a bit of fiddling, but that is looking very doable.

Do you mean just unplugging the pump from the fountain and letting it pump straight into the pond? Don't think that would be a good idea for this pump and this pond. Would really churn it up. Does it oxygenate the water just by rotating the surface water?

Thinking about the jumping fish, there was a big storm the other day, great big dump of water really quickly, flooded the backyard a bit. The pond got very high and the overflow is now being used for the pump (which is obviously stupid and should be changed back) so it might have even overflowed and just taken the fish with it? Mortar on the tiles around the top has gone so it would quickly drop back down after it stopped raining to the height of the actual pond, which is where it was at afterwards. So that is another possibility.

I will try and check for stray voltage, haven't found any instructions that are very practical yet for the pond but I'll keep looking. Probably a good idea to just ground the pond anyway? I guess electrical leakage could happen at any time with a submersible pump, and I'd only find out about (if I didn't constantly check) by sick/dieing/dead fish.

So if I have constant change, and a waterwall (though this is longer term, and will take awhile to plan and build), should that just about do it? I'm guessing I don't need a mechanical filter if I'm constantly changing the water? And based on the video, constant water change would probably take care of most of my problems? Seems like this option makes the most sense for an overstocked pond as well. And I could always add a UV filter later if algae is still a problem.

Again thanks everyone for the help, especially Waterbug, you've given me a lot of great information, very much appreciated!

Just for my own information, when people say "inches of fish", does that include the tail or not?

 

[dieselplower]

I can understand wanting to get some readings before changing the water.
And i would still get a filter, even with the constant water change thingy.

 

[HARO]

In fish, standard length does NOT include the tail.
John

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
I don't know about a constant water change
I don't think that would be good at all in my way of thinking.
That would mean the water temp ph and other things would be changing all the time.
And of course whats in your tap water if it has chlorine in it that would not be a great situation.
To be pumping it in your pond would never build Beneficial Bacteria would it.

Small water changes are one thing a constant water change is a whole different monster.

Ruben

 

[Waterbug]

That would mean the water temp ph and other things would be changing all the time.

Normally much more stable because the source water is normally rock solid.

And of course whats in your tap water if it has chlorine in it that would not be a great situation.

Dilution is why chlorine isn't a problem, as was discussed in the video. Here's another video discussing this method from high end Koi keeper Andy Moo, starting 7:30 minutes into the video.

To be pumping it in your pond would never build Beneficial Bacteria would it.

Chlorine levels are low enough for this bacteria to grow. There is also less need for ammonia conversion as the water leaving takes ammonia wit it. But this depends on how much water is run thru the pond. Varies from 10% per day to 10% per week depending on fish load and a keeper's goals.

Small water changes are one thing a constant water change is a whole different monster.

Traditional drain and replace water changes kill lots of fish. IMO that would be the monster.

 

[Waterbug]

Not exactly sure what to do with the overflow, could maybe feed some potplants or something, veggie garden is in raised beds that are higher than the pond which is a shame.

Adding an overflow can be the biggest downside. For the raised beds, keep in mind that the top of the water in the pond is the max level for where water comes out. And also watering raised beds doesn't have to be done at the surface.

Could maybe just put it back into the dripper system with a check valve, but would want to make sure the water is relatively clean already before I do that, clogging up the dripper system would be a major pain. Anyway it will take a bit of fiddling, but that is looking very doable.

In addition to the clogging issue, which would be huge, the drip system is pressurized so you'd need a pump to push water into that system. That would be impossible to balance flow and at least here would not be allowed by building code. They don't want pond water pushed into a drinking water system.

Do you mean just unplugging the pump from the fountain and letting it pump straight into the pond? Don't think that would be a good idea for this pump and this pond. Would really churn it up.

From a fish health perspective that's a good thing. Bad thing aesthetically. But you can raise the pump up a little or just point the outflow toward the surface. And generally this can stir things initially but pretty soon stuff finds a new quiet place to settle.

Does it oxygenate the water just by rotating the surface water?

Yes. Gas exchange happens at the surface as O2, CO2, etc try to balance between air and water. Water moved from the bottom to the surface as more CO2 and less O2 and as it comes close to the surface the gases balance with the air so CO2 leaves the water and O2 enters the water. The reason streams are high O2 is because so much area is near the air and the water is turning. Many people think it has to do with force, like the water must be crashing, but that isn't true.

So the water fountain is maxed out in gas exchange, But that's kind of the issue, just overkill for that amount of water. For example if you pumped the water 1' or 100' into the air the gas exchange would be the same although it costs you a lot more to pump the water 100'. Same for 1' vs just moving water to the surface, or creating any movement. But like I said, this is a really tiny difference. I'd keep the fountain if you like it.

 

[Waterbug]

Thinking about the jumping fish, there was a big storm the other day, great big dump of water really quickly, flooded the backyard a bit. The pond got very high and the overflow is now being used for the pump (which is obviously stupid and should be changed back) so it might have even overflowed and just taken the fish with it?

That's a real possibility. And this is why I think it's bad form to think problems can be fixed in forums using absolute certainty. We only get the info the poster gives. There is often more info the poster doesn't think is relevant...which is why they're posting in the first place. If they understood everything there'd be no reason to post.

Rain is what triggers fish that spawn in streams and this includes Koi and Goldfish. If I was a betting man this is where I'd put my money, and I'd give odds too.

This also demonstrates why an overflow is a good feature for any pond, whether drip water changing is done or not.

Side note...rain is very low pH, at least 5.5 pH and can be as low as 2 pH. There is a concept in pond keeping called "pond pH buffering" if you want to Google. Rain can cause pH to fall very fast and can kill fish. Drip water changing takes care of pH buffer for you automatically in virtually all cases.

I will try and check for stray voltage, haven't found any instructions that are very practical yet for the pond but I'll keep looking. Probably a good idea to just ground the pond anyway? I guess electrical leakage could happen at any time with a submersible pump, and I'd only find out about (if I didn't constantly check) by sick/dieing/dead fish.

I think the chance of this being a problem is very low. But sure, if you already have a meter then why not test. Basically you stick one probe into the water and ground the other probe and measure the current. And yes, all electrical devices leak current because they generate magnetic fields, not way around that. The question is whether the leakage gets to a level where it's hurting fish. There's no absolute level people agree on.

So if I have constant change, and a waterwall (though this is longer term, and will take awhile to plan and build), should that just about do it?

Doesn't get much better imo. One of the best features is how rock steady this kind of set up is, day in, day out, month after month. Because it doesn't require the keeper to do stuff which imo is always the weak link. I'm fond of saying certain filters are worthless. Well really they're worthless because they don't get cleaned by keepers as often as they should.

I'm guessing I don't need a mechanical filter if I'm constantly changing the water?

It greatly reduces the need. This is especially true for suspended particles so your water will be more clear. And actually without a bottom drain and jets the suspended particles would be all a mechanical filter could trap anyways. So bottom line is yes, you wouldn't need a mechanical filter.

Stuff that does settle on the bottom can be removed using a small net, like a minnow net from the pet store. Just scooped around on the bottom for a bit once a week, even once a month, you can remove a lot. Plus the stirring speeds decomposition and the water changing flushes that decomposed stuff away. Stirred stuff should settle in less than an hour.

And based on the video, constant water change would probably take care of most of my problems? Seems like this option makes the most sense for an overstocked pond as well.

Flow thru systems are state of the art on farms, Koi included, when water is available. The issue is always water supply. But if we're using X amount of water for landscape why not move that same water thru the pond first?

And I could always add a UV filter later if algae is still a problem.

Bingo.

Again thanks everyone for the help, especially Waterbug, you've given me a lot of great information, very much appreciated!

You're welcome. My pleasure to talk and think about ponds.

 

[Jason]

Yes, I can understand about the annoying sound of just a small spitter, as it sounds like someone Peeing into the water lol, you def have to have an array of water sounds to run together for it to be soothing! As for water changes, I have been doing 20% water changes once per week!? I shouldn't do that? Im just asking because it has worked well for me for the past 4 months (since pond was up and running) OH and for all you who have seen me wonder why I have no algae, I HAVE SOME NOW I have a small string of it in my fountain tier and green on the two tiers themselves, I was starting to think my pond was weird

 

[adavisus]

Culling the fish, and the amount of fish food going in would reduce the fertility that the algae thrives on.

I would have thought there would be some way to deflect the water of the fountain from being noisy.

Mebbe switch to using an air pump after dark? Oxygen levels will plunge with algae photosynthesising

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[Keith]

Got the new test kit, tested everything twice to be sure (thoroughly rinsed the test tubes of course).

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
PH: 7.4

Guess the algae is taking care of business.

I've attached a 1/4 inch line to the dripper near the pond, and measured the flow for 6 litres a day (10% per week), that's all working fine, blocked it off for now. So I've just got to figure out the overflow, mainly just deciding what to use the water for. Of course you're right waterbug I can't put it back into the drippers, don't know what I was thinking. Once again thanks for all the info you've given me.

Jason you're right, it sounds a bit like 4 men peeing into the pond.

Advisis, well I'm not actually going to kill any of the fish deliberately, but if any die of course I won't replace them. We do not feed the fish generally, maybe once a month we put some fish food in so we can see the fish come to surface. I'm open to suggestions as to how I can make the fountain quiet, if there's a simple solution that doesn't look too stupid that would be great. If I decide the water wall is too hard to build, an air pump is a possible alternative.