Plants Koi eat???

[Dave 54]

@Dave 54 - did you just say what I think you said?

What pleco's are tropical koi coldwater thats how they are classed Lisa however if you Listen to Peter Waddington they are acctually a warm water fish, sort of sub tropical

Dave

 

[bettasngoldfish]

What pleco's are tropical koi coldwater thats how they are classed Lisa however if you Listen to Peter Waddington they are acctually a warm water fish, sort of sub tropical

Dave

I think she is teasing you Dave, something about koi and cold water.

 

[Dave 54]

I think she is teasing you Dave, something about koi and cold water.

I know Maria they are and they arent in reality according to Peter Waddington koi guru they should in fact be kept heated during the winter months but that a bone of contention amoungst koi keepers .
We dont heat but they never get bellow 7c and if they do we have the back up oil heated radiator to warm everything up in the filter house and thus the water.
I've seen Peter agruse passionately on this subject on his website, anyone picking this subject would end up loosing it everytime.
Remember he spent years gaining the trust and knowldge of the Japanese top breeders (all of who bring their own koi indoors during their short but sharp winters).
It looks set to be an arguement and one that will rumble on and on for years to come over just what koi are, remember they are far removed from their ancestors and have an imune system that through selective breeding isnt that of the immune system of their ancestors being in fact weaker than them

Dave

 

[amanda]

Thanks Dave. My babies have been raised together for the last 5 years since they were itty bitty. My pleco only gets aggressive when he's hungry. Plus I have a 2'x6" PVC pipe in the tank for him to hide in and driftwood. He's fine with my koi. They both get veggies also. Some floating for my koi and some on a veggie clip for my pleco. I know it's not the normal habitat for koi, but he's always been tank raised indoors. I appreciate your input."Dave 54, post: 256970, member: 5153"]Amanda please be aware of this that pleco have been know to attach themselves to the sides of koi and have then left them with some nasty circular wounds where their mouths have rasped away the mucus .
One should never mix fish unless you have first found out that the are indeed compatable with each other.
Not only that Pleco's are tropical fish koi coldwater .


Dave[/QUOTE]
Thank's

 

[amanda]

Hi Amanda, You do have to watch those plecos when they are mixed with the larger and slower moving fish. I have a sneaking suspicion that the plecos who have attacked their tank mates may have been starving (I have seen this in petstore sale tanks) (many people have the notion that you don't have to feed a pleco and that they eat waste on the bottom of the tank or the algae from the sides of the tank) I also have to wonder about the fish they attached themselves to and if they were already ill and possibly sitting still on the bottom of the tank. If they have been together for a long time and you are not having any problems I would just keep a close eye on them. It's a good idea to have a piece of driftwood for your pleco to rasp on (which may also help keep him away from the koi) Temperatures between 72-85 are okay for a pleco so I would guess your tank temperature falls somewhere in that area? (unless you are running a chiller) Sorry if I am getting off topic and away from your question

Try some anacharis in your tank. I'm not so sure about the pleco eating it but I'm pretty sure your koi will eat it (my goldfish love it) http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=768+1632+780&pcatid=780 I leave mine loose and floating in the tank and pond.

View attachment 78236

Thank you for the heads up on a plant. Ive

 

[Dave 54]

Why thank you amanda , we used to keep our koi indooors for 22 years in a huge 22O gallon imperial tank 6 ft x 2ft x 2.5ft before ill health forced our move outdoors , with koi the bigger the fish tank the better.
I've added a few photos of our old setup before the move outdoors hope you like them...?
If your looking for a varied diet for them Amanda go to the articles page you'll see something my wife Val and I put together about alterrnate foods for your koi it gives you vitamins etc Everything good that your koi will benifit from , it took many years to put together and as you'll see its very well thought out

Dave

 

[Lisak1]

I was just teasing @Dave 54 - he knows it's all in good fun. I would ask my koi if they prefer warmer water, but since they are under 24 inches of snow and another inch or so of ice it's going to be a while before I get the chance!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Thanks Dave. My babies have been raised together for the last 5 years since they were itty bitty. My pleco only gets aggressive when he's hungry. Plus I have a 2'x6" PVC pipe in the tank for him to hide in and driftwood. He's fine with my koi. They both get veggies also. Some floating for my koi and some on a veggie clip for my pleco. I know it's not the normal habitat for koi, but he's always been tank raised indoors. I appreciate your input."Dave 54, post: 256970, member: 5153"]Amanda please be aware of this that pleco have been know to attach themselves to the sides of koi and have then left them with some nasty circular wounds where their mouths have rasped away the mucus .
One should never mix fish unless you have first found out that the are indeed compatable with each other.
Not only that Pleco's are tropical fish koi coldwater .


Dave

Thank's[/QUOTE]

Sorry to disagree, Dave54, but Koi (Cyprinus carpio) are classified as a warm-water fish by the scientific and aquacultural community.

"Carp prefer warm slow or still waters with a muddy substrate and abundant vegetation."
http://www.water.ncsu.edu/watershedss/info/aqlife.html

"Freshwater aquaculture in Republic of Croatia includes production of warm-water (cyprinid or carp-like) species and cold-water (salmonid, trout-like) species."
http://www.mps.hr/ribarstvo/default.aspx?id=42

I can supply other links if needed.

The benchmark for warm water and cold water classification of fish is Oxygen demand. Cold water fish require high levels of DO whereas warm water fish are able to tolerate low DO levels for extended periods. Koi (Cyprinus carpio) have the ability to survive in low DO levels hence are warm water fish.

In addition, the strength of the immune response in a fish is not governed by genetics, but rather by its environment. A fish (or any other animal) that has adapted to a sterile environment will have a severely compromised immune response.

The immune system is much like a muscle. 'Use it of Lose it'. The more a muscle is used the stronger it becomes. Lack of use results in atrophy. Same with immune systems. The more that it is challenged the stronger it gets.

 

[amanda]

Dave,
Your tank was beautiful! I've been told the last almost 6 years koi don't belong in a tank. You're the first I can connect with. Lol
Whenever i have veggies in my tank( and someone sees them for the first time) they ask why. I jokingly answer, I'm premarinating them. I don't eat fish.
These pics are older, right after i lost my white koi last year. She swallowed a bunch of gravel. Most these pics were taken just after I lost my white koi in June, so the water quality was bad and being taken care of to get back up to par. But just a snap shot of size of fish to tank. P.s. it's nice to know my cats aren't the only ones who love being on top of the fish tank.
Amanda

257055, member: 5153"]Why thank you amanda , we used to keep our koi indooors for 22 years in a huge 22O gallon imperial tank 6 ft x 2ft x 2.5ft before ill health forced our move outdoors , with koi the bigger the fish tank the better.
I've added a few photos of our old setup before the move outdoors hope you like them...?
If your looking for a varied diet for them Amanda go to the articles page you'll see something my wife Val and I put together about alterrnate foods for your koi it gives you vitamins etc Everything good that your koi will benifit from , it took many years to put together and as you'll see its very well thought out

View attachment 78248

View attachment 78249

View attachment 78250

Dave[/QUOTE]
Your tank was beauriful

 

[Dave 54]

Thank's

"Sorry to disagree, Dave54, but Koi (Cyprinus carpio) are classified as a warm-water fish by the scientific and aquacultural community.

"Carp prefer warm slow or still waters with a muddy substrate and abundant vegetation."
http://www.water.ncsu.edu/watershedss/info/aqlife.html

"Freshwater aquaculture in Republic of Croatia includes production of warm-water (cyprinid or carp-like) species and cold-water (salmonid, trout-like) species."
http://www.mps.hr/ribarstvo/default.aspx?id=42

I can supply other links if needed.

The benchmark for warm water and cold water classification of fish is Oxygen demand. Cold water fish require high levels of DO whereas warm water fish are able to tolerate low DO levels for extended periods. Koi (Cyprinus carpio) have the ability to survive in low DO levels hence are warm water fish.

In addition, the strength of the immune response in a fish is not governed by genetics, but rather by its environment. A fish (or any other animal) that has adapted to a sterile environment will have a severely compromised immune response.

The immune system is much like a muscle. 'Use it of Lose it'. The more a muscle is used the stronger it becomes. Lack of use results in atrophy. Same with immune systems. The more that it is challenged the stronger it gets.

I said coldwater because they are classed as that by the fish trade throughout the world , if you recall prior posts I've made that Colleen has responded to I've said they are sub tropical and thats what Peter waddington has been saying for years .
Thanks for the heads up as now I can officially say that koi are classed as a warm water fish , but I doubt Colleen will ever agree with whats printed .
I find your mention of things not being down to the Gene pool but a sterile enviroment , thats not what I was taught.
The koi themselves as we know first came about due to a genetic quirk in which instead of the usual colour a carp turned up as having a red colouration and basically when another turned up Koi as we first knew them where born.
However they come from a limited gene pool the last fresh DNA so to Speak came from the doitsu and of late the indoneasian river carp (that give us the butterfly) bred for the US maket and not recognised by the Japanese .
But it is know the purer you go with koi then the more likely that koi is going to suffer problems with its immune system being compromised ,
Some time ago I read an indepth looking into the issue of the limited gene pool koi have and the problems they have with their immune system problems and how they are settling out to rectify this.
By adding the wild magio or eatinmg carp to the breeding program the hope is that this is going to solve the issue once and for all.
However so far with these experiments they are seeing mixed initial results that arent to good, for the koi breeders as these koi all have are rather dull colouration which they cant seem to fix, which is far distant that what we see and are used to so its more a case of watch this space at the moment....
However I'll read these papers with interest Meyer thanx again my friend



Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Dave,
Your tank was beautiful! I've been told the last almost 6 years koi don't belong in a tank. You're the first I can connect with. Lol
Whenever i have veggies in my tank( and someone sees them for the first time) they ask why. I jokingly answer, I'm premarinating them. I don't eat fish.
These pics are older, right after i lost my white koi last year. She swallowed a bunch of gravel. Most these pics were taken just after I lost my white koi in June, so the water quality was bad and being taken care of to get back up to par. But just a snap shot of size of fish to tank. P.s. it's nice to know my cats aren't the only ones who love being on top of the fish tank.
Amanda
View attachment 78259 View attachment 78259 View attachment 78260 View attachment 78261 View attachment 78260 257055, member: 5153"]
Why thank you amanda , we used to keep our koi indooors for 22 years in a huge 22O gallon imperial tank 6 ft x 2ft x 2.5ft before ill health forced our move outdoors , with koi the bigger the fish tank the better.
I've added a few photos of our old setup before the move outdoors hope you like them...?
If your looking for a varied diet for them Amanda go to the articles page you'll see something my wife Val and I put together about alterrnate foods for your koi it gives you vitamins etc Everything good that your koi will benifit from , it took many years to put together and as you'll see its very well thought out

View attachment 78248

View attachment 78249

View attachment 78250

Dave

Nice tank Amanda what size is it please in feet and also gallons Imperial not US as it looks to be on a par with our own ex tank?
What type of filters are you using on the tank and how many ?
How often do you do water changes , you must keep on top of them indoors moreso than in a pond ?
How often do you check your water perameters and what test kit do you yourself use ?
Sorry for all the questions , I may well be able to give you some pointers here , we'll see .
Our tank has got a new lease of life as a reef tank the glass was 10 ml with the base being 20 ml total cost orginally £793.00 UK ,then 22 years later we sold it for £600.00UK which when you think about it was amazing as it hardly dropped at all in Value at all and all the guy wanted was the glass not the lid or its base .
We filtered ours with a Ehiem Professional III 2080 and a Fluval FX5 the mother of all filters as well as a 650 watt power head supplying a hagen slot together undergravel filter that coveered 3ft of the tank the rest being gravel .
For air we used an Airtec 40e with four pond airstones , the water was as you see kept cyrstal clean and the koi were in immaculate condition .
Ill health forced our move outdoors because with my knee problems I could no longer stand and clean it for 4,5 hours once a month , outdoors its only move a few slide valves flush through and replace water via a dechlornation filter , with the water being trickled back into the pond ( I can sit indoors waiting for the pond to top up the water flushed through which is about 40% or so.
Interestingly there is one book that I know of koi wise that gives a mention of koi keeping behind glass and thats by an Author now sadly passed away called Barry Goodwin a uk Author the book is called the The Enigma of Koi and it lacks an ISBN number but is available on Amazon for a pittence nowadays .
Why not invest in a copy the chapter is Part 2 chapter 7 page 181 to 185 .....
Dave

 

[amanda]

Dave, mine is 48x24x31(just the tank. Including base 5 foot tall), 150 gallon, marineland tank. I'm running 2 canister marineland magnum 350's. No undergravel filters, probably be easier. I use basic 5 in 1 test strips and ammonia strips. Can usually judge temp by hand (usually around 72-75). I do a 25% water change maybe once a month. My filters have recently got back into the swing of things, since losing my white koi. Change them about once a month or so. I've had my koi since they were to small for a 20 gallon tank. I got my pleco when I bought my 55 gallon for them. My butterfly and pleco (at almost 6 years of age) are both 16 + inches each. 54, post: 257087, member: 5153"]Nice tank Amanda what size is it please in feet and also gallons Imperial not US as it looks to be on a par with our own ex tank?
What type of filters are you using on the tank and how many ?
How often do you do water changes , you must keep on top of them indoors moreso than in a pond ?
How often do you check your water perameters and what test kit do you yourself use ?
Sorry for all the questions , I may well be able to give you some pointers here , we'll see .
Our tank has got a new lease of life as a reef tank the glass was 10 ml with the base being 20 ml total cost orginally £793.00 UK ,then 22 years later we sold it for £600.00UK which when you think about it was amazing as it hardly dropped at all in Value at all and all the guy wanted was the glass not the lid or its base .
We filtered ours with a Ehiem Professional III 2080 and a Fluval FX5 the mother of all filters as well as a 650 watt power head supplying a hagen slot together undergravel filter that coveered 3ft of the tank the rest being gravel .
For air we used an Airtec 40e with four pond airstones , the water was as you see kept cyrstal clean and the koi were in immaculate condition .
Ill health forced our move outdoors because with my knee problems I could no longer stand and clean it for 4,5 hours once a month , outdoors its only move a few slide valves flush through and replace water via a dechlornation filter , with the water being trickled back into the pond ( I can sit indoors waiting for the pond to top up the water flushed through which is about 40% or so.
Interestingly there is one book that I know of koi wise that gives a mention of koi keeping behind glass and thats by an Author now sadly passed away called Barry Goodwin a uk Author the book is called the The Enigma of Koi and it lacks an ISBN number but is available on Amazon for a pittence nowadays .
Why not invest in a copy the chapter is Part 2 chapter 7 page 181 to 185 .....
Dave[/QUOTE]
Dave, mine I

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I said coldwater because they are classed as that by the fish trade throughout the world , if you recall prior posts I've made that Colleen has responded to I've said they are sub tropical and thats what Peter waddington has been saying for years .
Thanks for the heads up as now I can officially say that koi are classed as a warm water fish , but I doubt Colleen will ever agree with whats printed .
I find your mention of things not being down to the Gene pool but a sterile enviroment , thats not what I was taught.
The koi themselves as we know first came about due to a genetic quirk in which instead of the usual colour a carp turned up as having a red colouration and basically when another turned up Koi as we first knew them where born.
However they come from a limited gene pool the last fresh DNA so to Speak came from the doitsu and of late the indoneasian river carp (that give us the butterfly) bred for the US maket and not recognised by the Japanese .
But it is know the purer you go with koi then the more likely that koi is going to suffer problems with its immune system being compromised ,
Some time ago I read an indepth looking into the issue of the limited gene pool koi have and the problems they have with their immune system problems and how they are settling out to rectify this.
By adding the wild magio or eatinmg carp to the breeding program the hope is that this is going to solve the issue once and for all.
However so far with these experiments they are seeing mixed initial results that arent to good, for the koi breeders as these koi all have are rather dull colouration which they cant seem to fix, which is far distant that what we see and are used to so its more a case of watch this space at the moment....
However I'll read these papers with interest Meyer thanx again my friend



Dave

If one were to follow the genetic argument in your comment, then one would have to assume that fish species that are isolated in a Lake environment would over years of in-breeding lose immune system functionality. We all know that this is not the case The genetic argument holds no value. If it were valid, physical and physiological deformities would be common place.

A study conducted years ago, in the UK btw, followed the health of Two (2) groups of children as they matured. One group was not allowed open access to the outdoors and were raised in a protective environment. The second group were allowed free access to the outdoors and allowed to do what children do so well....get dirty and even eat a little dirt at times. At the conclusion of the study it was found that the sheltered group had many and varied health issues, whereas the unfettered group had practically no health issues. Bottom line, the first group had not developed and maintained a healthy, functioning immune system, whereas the second group had.

Ask yourself, why is it necessary to keep such an extensive 'first aid kit' for your fish, when others, including myself, that have raised Koi for years in eco-system ponds have never had a notable health issue with our fish requiring the use of such a kit.

Japanese breeders know the value of exposing fish to a natural environment. Grow out ponds provide more benefit to a Koi than just an increase in body mass.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

A study conducted years ago, in the UK btw, followed the health of Two (2) groups of children as they matured. One group was not allowed open access to the outdoors and were raised in a protective environment. The second group were allowed free access to the outdoors and allowed to do what children do so well....get dirty and even eat a little dirt at times. At the conclusion of the study it was found that the sheltered group had many and varied health issues, whereas the unfettered group had practically no health issues. Bottom line, the first group had not developed and maintained a healthy, functioning immune system, whereas the second group had.

I know a few people who have kids and as parents they are freaks about cleanliness and germs. Seems their kids are getting sick all the time I even joked once or twice that they should let their kids get dirty once in a while. Play on the ground, have a pet in the house, and heaven forbid maybe even eat without scrubbing and sanitizing their hands first

 

[Dave 54]

Just going of a report I read Meyer but if what your saying is the case, then why the introduction of the Magio to strengthen the blood lines ?
Keeping an extensive first aid kit I can see as a problem. have you ever read Duncan griffiths book he acctually recomends over five such kits , Val and I had put ours together prior to reading his book it was the logical move to treat our koi for any any eventuality.
May I add here that we had the Chair of the BKKS's Health Standards Committee in the Plymouth club and quite a few of us have put them togther because of him and his unstinting love of koi and of koi health .
Have we had to use them..... the answer is yes from time to time koi do cause serious damage to themselves and the worst time for this Breeding season as you know its a violent affair .
Yes there is a big difference to how we the Britsh ,the Europeans, South Africans and some Americans keep our koi call it an unatural enviroment as you aptly put.it....
However that what is lacking is added on a routine basis trace elements .clays etc
Though not kept like yours in a natural enviroment they are very well looked after my friend .... koi dont get to 28 years of age if care is at all lacking do they ?.
There are two kinds of fish keeper one is the ponder who goes down the route you so rightly have taken and the formal koi keeper who's koi only ever see four walls and the floor in their pond.... but they get the best .
As to the genetics why do you think koi fry are "culled" on a regular basis removing any deformities prior to the end product..
Yes the Japonese breeders use" growing on mud ponds", to finish their koi but from there on in they are sold then sold on again to us the koi keeper with our formal ponds , I cannot see a problem in keeping them that way it focus's us on their beauty .
Surely there must be times when you have to physically have to help your koi and have to use a first aid kit yourself or are you saying that in the natural pond they can in acctual fact cure themselves because if thats the case we the formal keepers have it all wrong ,

Dave