Question about pH

[barryian]

I'm quite calm @Meyer Jordan ... That was figuratively speaking but many neglect kH and many are unaware it exists. When they have floating fish rather than swimming fish from a pH crash, they wonder why. Just trying to prevent that. Some states more than other, yours and S.C. have average pH rainfall under 5.0, actually 4.6 or so ... depending on the pond depth, that can be a factor but that's a large drop.

 

[barryian]

The test that I have doesn't measure kh. I am going to order a new test kit to rule that out. The fish appear fine. I lost one last week that I had freed from the skimmer a few days before and panicked. Do the new tests test for kh or do I have to get a separate one?

Definitely separate. Most kits don't include it but it's an important one. These are very accurate for ponds ... Check the date on the bottles when you get it. kH is the important one though this kit comes with both.

http://www.amazon.com/API-GH-KH-Tes...id=1462808864&sr=8-1&keywords=api+kh+test+kit

 

[crsublette]

When I tested my pond water on Friday, the ammonia was .25 and the pH was 8.8. I purchased some zeolite and placed it in the skimmer and biofilter. Just tested again and the ammonia is a little less but pH has dropped to 7.6. Did the zeolite cause the drop? We had huge rains last weekend 4+ inches. Fish are all active and do not seem stressed other than begging for food which I was holding off on due to ammonia.

The pond is about 4500 gallons. It does have an overflow pipe in the skimmer to keep it from washing over the liner in heavy rain. It was 8.8 a week after the rain. No idea what it was before. I used maybe 3 8oz cups of zeolite in panty hose in the filter. I also have carbon in the filters. My test kit is at least 3 years old do I am going to order a new one.

Are these pH tests at the same time of day? Did the pH go higher or was different than 7.6 after you tested again?

Time of day doing pH tests matter due to photosynthesis and respiration (which your green water algae is also a "plant") by various plants and microbiology in the pond. This can change your water's pH if your water's alkalinity is too low.

Sounds like to me your green water algae is probably rather thick, your big rains have been "eating your alkalinity", and the nutrients in your pond are not controlled.

I would bet your ammonia was lowered due to your green water algae. The pH change is likely primarily being driven by your green water due to your big rains having reduced your alkalinity.

If you think your zeolite and carbon in the filters are having an impact, then remove the zeolite and carbon so to then test the water again a day or so later to see if you notice a change.

Do you fill your pond water with garden tap water (that is municipal town water) or ground/stream water? I know the Carolina's have prominent phosphate rock formations, but high phosphates are strictly controlled to be much lower if you are using municipal water. If you are using stream/snow melt water or ground water, then you likely have a quite high level of phosphates in the water thus one variable leading to you having issues with green water algae. The only natural solution to phosphates is to construct some grow bed filters or bogs so that the plant growth can extract the phosphates. I would hold off from doing the synthetic phosphate controls until you have already tried the plant approach.

If you concerned about your test result's accuracy, then you can take a sample of your pond water to a local ma/pa fish shop or big pet store that sells fish. These businesses will often do water tests for you for free or for a very small fee.

 

[crsublette]

@ashirley Unfortunately, the KH alkalinity test kit is sold separately that is not sold in the typical API bundle kit.

Fish are all active and do not seem stressed other than begging for food which I was holding off on due to ammonia.

The fish appear fine. I lost one last week that I had freed from the skimmer a few days before and panicked.

@ashirley You are smart to hold off feeding for a few. With the size of your pond, I imagine your fish will find plenty of food from the insects, snails, algae, and other critters in your pond. Unless your pond is just crazy crowded with fish, except does not sound like it is.

I bet your fish are fine at the moment. The pH changes is a nuisance to them. Since Spring is cranking up, increasing some plant grow beds where pond water circulates through them or increasing plants in the pond would help stabilize things.

If you want to see what you can do about stabilizing your pH, then do a forum search for these terms: alkalinity, calcium carbonate, crushed oyster shells, baking soda.

Ponding with fish is fun, but, if you really want to get into it, then you will likely be approached by terms that will cause you to fall asleep.

Ya can still enjoy ponding without know much details, but just be prepared to net out a dead fish here and there... and... fish have a tendency to reproduce like crazy so you may just net out fish on occasion to control the population. Bright side is fish do wonders for the compost pile!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Sounds like to me your green water algae is probably rather thick, your big rains have been "eating your alkalinity", and the nutrients in your pond are not controlled.

I would bet your ammonia was lowered due to your green water algae. The pH change is likely primarily being driven by your green water due to your big rains having reduced your alkalinity.

I would find this plausible except for the fact that in Post #1 it was stated that the pH reading of 8.8 was obtained on Friday (post was dated Sunday) and then referred to the rain event as being the previous weekend ("last weekend"). Any change in pH due to the rain would have occurred well before the Friday that the pH results were obtained. The drop in pH occurred sometime between Friday and Sunday when the post was published to the Forum. This is one of the reasons that I quickly discounted the rain as being a factor.

 

[crsublette]

I would find this plausible except for the fact that in Post #1 it was stated that the pH reading of 8.8 was obtained on Friday (post was dated Sunday) and then referred to the rain event as being the previous weekend ("last weekend"). Any change in pH due to the rain would have occurred well before the Friday that the pH results were obtained. The drop in pH occurred sometime between Friday and Sunday when the post was published to the Forum. This is one of the reasons that I quickly discounted the rain as being a factor.

@Meyer Jordan I agree. Your statements is exactly why I stated that I think the "pH change is likely primarily being driven by the green water" algae. I only gave rain the credit for reducing her alkalinity.

 

[crsublette]

It was 8.8 a week after the rain. No idea what it was before.

.... Since too much time disparity (i.e., 8.8ph a week after a rain) ...and then she tested again here more recently was 7.6 pH...

This tells me two possibilities or a combination of both...

1) rain event allowed ground water run off to enter the pond and this run off brought along with it contaminants;

2) significant rain reduced alkalinity so much that this alkalinity change allowed other variables (such as the green water algae) to create a significant diurnal pH swing event to occur and she is testing the water at different times of day.

From my perspective, sounds more likely to be a combination of both, with more dominance of #2.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

.... Since too much time disparity (i.e., 8.8ph a week after a rain) ...and then she tested again here more recently was 7.6 pH...

This tells me two possibilities or a combination of both...

1) rain event allowed ground water run off to enter the pond and this run off brought along with it contaminants;

2) significant rain reduced alkalinity so much that this alkalinity change allowed other variables (such as the green water algae) to create a significant diurnal pH swing event to occur and she is testing the water at different times of day.

From my perspective, sounds more likely to be a combination of both, with more dominance of #2.

I respectfully disagree on both counts because both assume that the KH has been severely compromised. If this was the case then a pH test result would have indicated a level much lower than the 7.6 obtained from this most recent pH test, no matter what time of day it was obtained.
For the scenarios that you described I would expect a pH in the range of 6.0 - 7.0 to show up as test results. As long as the KH is over 30 mg/L there will be no wild swings. (Some extension services put this level even lower..20 mg/l.) Below this level a pH crash is very likely to occur. We see no advance sign of such a crash in Shirley's pond based on her test results.
My focus is still on the accuracy of the test results. At least until other information surfaces to lead me to a different conclusion.

 

[ashirley]

I fill my pond with well water. I ordered a new test kit for everything which is due to arrive on Friday and I found a home for some goldfish if I can catch the suckers. My pond has a raised edge so we do t get runoff from the yard. Sometimes I feel like I need a doctorate in biology and chemistry when all I wanted was to enjoy the fish.

 

[sissy]

I know the extremely heavy rains we had some of the water ran off the edge of my gutter into the pond ,could that have been possible in your case .I tested my water and ph was up but by the next day i noticed it had gone down a little by color change and then 2 days later it was down to normal and then I used the pond net on the bottom and ph went up again ,so suspect some of the grit off the roof could have done that and when I used the net I mixed it up again .I did pull what looked like grit out of the pond .I rubbed it between my fingers and looked at it closely

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Sometimes I feel like I need a doctorate in biology and chemistry when all I wanted was to enjoy the fish.

That is what Forums like this are for.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

When your new pH test kit arrives, perform a test early in the morning, if possible, and then another test the same day at dusk. You should get 2 different results. Please post them here.

 

[crsublette]

I respectfully disagree on both counts because both assume that the KH has been severely compromised. If this was the case then a pH test result would have indicated a level much lower than the 7.6 obtained from this most recent pH test, no matter what time of day it was obtained.
For the scenarios that you described I would expect a pH in the range of 6.0 - 7.0 to show up as test results. As long as the KH is over 30 mg/L there will be no wild swings. (Some extension services put this level even lower..20 mg/l.) Below this level a pH crash is very likely to occur. We see no advance sign of such a crash in Shirley's pond based on her test results.
My focus is still on the accuracy of the test results. At least until other information surfaces to lead me to a different conclusion.

I have experienced and observed the opposite...

As long as the KH is over 30 mg/L there will be no wild swings. (Some extension services put this level even lower..20 mg/l.) Below this level a pH crash is very likely to occur.

I know that pH swings can also be removed even when a residual total alkalinity of 9mg/L is maintained in a RAS system... but key word here is "maintained"... as in, carbon dioxide was properly stripped and alkalinity was added upon fish feedings.

Do you have any hyperlink references that flat out states "there will be no wild pH swings if KH is over 20~30mg/L" ? I am quite curious their context in stating this...

 

[cas]

As long as the KH is over 30 mg/L there will be no wild swings.

Meyer, how does this relate to ppm? I am only familiar with translating the number of drops it takes to turn yellow to ppm.

 

[crsublette]

Meyer, how does this relate to ppm? I am only familiar with translating the number of drops it takes to turn to yellow to ppm.

mg/L = ppm