Question on Streams and Bogs, water flow

[JamesB]

I've noticed most of the bog builds that incorporate a stream usually flow to the pond. What if you reversed that flow to the bog through a stream and pump back to the pond. I'm talking a small 6 x 9 pond with a stream flowing down under my model railroad track to a bog. :razz: There would have to be a sump I think. Maybe it's to complex? I really want a stream under a model railroad bridge. :ideacyclops:

I found the software on the forum won't let me search a three letter word like "Bog", so I might be missing some threads in my searches. James

 

[addy1]

I don't see why it would not work, you would need to match the output of water with the input of water. That might be the hardest part. Or have the stream flow to the bog, have a pipe take the bog water back to the pond, a nice loop.

 

[Waterbug]

I think putting the pump in the bog is a much better design than pumping water into the bog. The pond will always be full which is a look I like. Because the pond overflows you get a skimmer for free and if you add an bottom drain it's easy.

I'm not sure I follow exactly how you think it would work, but I think you're on the right track. A picture might help.

The only issue is all evaporation will show up in the bog, so it can be a little difficult seeing when it's time to add water. An auto fill float valve can solve that. To be safe I like to supply the float valve from a sprinkler valve on a timer. When (no if) the float valve fails it will be limited by the sprinkler valve. Or, even better, set up a trickle water change system.

 

[don't ask]

waterbug i hadn't thought of the free skimmer part and sounds like a good idea James has.. just wondering on pumping from a bog the possible issue of debris and would that make it a lot of working keeping the pump intake clean and clear or do you get a pump that handles debris and then filter or skim it after it's pumped from bog?

 

[JamesB]

This is good news. A little more background: As the result of reading the forum, I've been trickling in water now for two weeks, about 1 gallon an hour with a trickle outfall to some ferns that like the water.

The lay of the land has the pond on higher ground than the planned bog area. Maybe a foot to eighteen inches. Below the trickle outfall there is a dry "stream bed" to the planned bog area. This is due to some earthwork I did for the track and the pond. The area in and around the pond is very much a work in progress. We just put in a Strawberry Pot Trickle Filter too.

I think maybe the return pump at the bog could go in a box with screen/mesh of some sort in the bog to keep out rocks and debris. Looking at the Laguna series of pumps. I'm thinking small bog for a small pond. But I could be wrong there. It will be a while before I do anything but I like to plan. I can take a photo or two this weekend, Thanks James

 

[Waterbug]

For the pump cut some 1" or so holes into a 5 gal plastic bucket. Put that in the bog, put pump into the bucket. If the 5 gal is too tall cut it down by cutting off the bottom rather than the top. Keep the bucket top because it can better handle being covered by a flat rock.

Screen, mesh, foam is not desirable imo. It just clogs and serves no useful purpose. By the time the water gets to the pump it's been pre filtered plenty. Best pre filter there is.

 

[JamesB]

Here are the photos. The bog could go over where the loose concrete blocks are. James

 

[addy1]

That would look nice

 

[Waterbug]

Seems like a plan.

Couple of things you might want to consider...most people like to build a kind of round bog. But the real benefit of a bog is the water moving through the bog, and the longer the water is in the bog the better. In a round bog the water doesn't really travel that far, just one side to the other.

Instead think of the bog like a subsurface stream. It could windt around the yard, or back and forth on itself. For the same amount of liner, digging, and gravel, you can get a bog that's 2, 3, 4 times as good. And with a long 12-18" wide channel you don't need any complex distribution pipes. Just water in one end and water out the other. With a winding bog you can have the "end" right next to the pond, so the pump doesn't have as far to pump and you have less pipe to buy and lay.

The winding bog, like a regular bog, isn't sloped at all, keep all top edges level.

Send the pump out put into the bottom of the pond to keep it stirred. That will improve O2 way better than having it splash around on top.

Another benefit you will see someday from the bog being lower is your stream will act as an excellent foam fractionator so you'll never have foam floating around on the surface of your pond. To improve this you might want to build a little catch basin where the stream enters the bog. You can place a basket in there which would also be your skimmer basket. Most of the foam would stay in that basket which could be emptied.

If you wanted to really go all out you could build a sieve filter instead of a skimmer basket. Pretty easy for this type of design.

 

[JamesB]

Thanks Waterbug. That is very helpful and sounds like a great way to make a nice area. I have a couple of large Goldfish and several turtles visit the pond.

- With a 12" to 18" wide channel, would the channel need to be at least 12" deep and full of peagravel? Would anything else be helpful in the bog besides plants?

I just walked off the length for the bog channel loop, about 18 feet. In addition the water fall from the pond be about 5 feet in length. Both longer than I thought.

I don't know what the flow rate needs to be through the bog to allow it to work properly. I was thinking a 600 gpm pump in the pond itself moving water around and a 600 gpm to move water from the bog sump at the end back to the pond. Does this make sense?

James

 

[Waterbug]

12" deep is a good depth. You could go a little deeper if you wanted, but 12" is very good imo.

Bog's aren't required to have plants, but many do. Most of the benefits from bogs are bacteria related and settling of suspended particles. Plants have advantages too, primary being they look great. A bog with a lot of plants would be more of a veggie filter. Here's three general ways I set up a bog. The actual final design is almost ways going to be a combination of these.

Adding plants to a winding bog is a bit of an issue because the plants can block off the water flow. Normally not a big deal because in those spots the water flows over the surface to get over the plant's root ball. But generally a winding bog isn't packed with plants. The primary use of a winding bog is to increase the chance of the bog stopping green water without using a UV.

On the other end a Veggie bog is primarily for growing plants. While these can certainly stop green water they're less likely to. Of course if you add a UV then green water isn't an issue. And for all of these bogs, a UV can normally be turned off after a few weeks and the bog, stream and pond will keep the water clear for months.

The Winding Veggie is something in between. Lot's of ways to configure these: as shown, half Veggie and half winding Bog, etc. For the Winding Veggie runs you increase the width to about 18-36".

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Nice diagrams Waterbug, but your bogs gave me an idea for a bog that I think would be a little funner, albeit maybe not as effective.

 

[Waterbug]

I don't know what the flow rate needs to be through the bog to allow it to work properly.

There isn't really a max flow rate, the bacteria can handle high flows, like water in a rushing stream. There is a limit of how much water can make it thru the gravel. Too high a flow and you'll see water bunching up here and there on the surface. The only down side to that is water on the surface generally grows string algae. String algae in a bog is good for water quality but makes a mess if in with plants.

600 gph thru a 12"x12" gravel channel would be no problem.

BTW, water bunching on the surface is also a sign of the gravel clogging. In your case, with the designs in my picture, I wouldn't expect that to happen for 15+ years if plants are kept in pots. Planting directly in the gravel might speed up future clogging, but I wouldn't let that stop you if you wanted to plant directly into the gravel. Clogging is feared more than it should imo.

Water bunching on the surface when you first install the bog just means there's too much water in the bog. If you have an auto fill it means it's too high. Or you just don't have enough gravel in the bog.

You do want the sides of the bog to be at least 1" above the gravel so if any clogs form the water can still flow over the surface and not leak over the side. Easy to test...just over fill the bog with water to check a 1" depth. If the bog overflows before the 1" depth you just have to remove some gravel in the high spots.

The dirt on gravel is not good for the fish and can make a mess of the pond. When you first fire up the bog the water will be very dirty. Pump that dirty water into the yard, not the pond. Keep hosing down the gravel and pumping out the dirty water until the water is clear. A lot of the dirt on the gravel will just wash off and settle on the bottom of the bog where it isn't a problem. When the water is clear you can pump water into the pond after dechlorinating the water in the bog if you have chlorine.

I was thinking a 600 gpm pump in the pond itself moving water around and a 600 gpm to move water from the bog sump at the end back to the pond. Does this make sense?

I don't know how big your pond is or number, kind, size of fish, or how much food you feed, so I can't say on the amount of flow exactly. But going by the photo you posted those pumps sound very good.

If it was me I'd probably just have a single 600 gph pump in the bog and have the out flow in the pond about 1' off the bottom so the water in the pond rotated. If I had two pumps, or I wanted two pumps as backups to each other, I would put both into the bog and run 2 out flow pipes into the pond. That gets you even more rotation, more O2, more water in the stream, more water thru the bog.

 

[Waterbug]

idea for a bog that I think would be a little funner, albeit maybe not as effective.

Water would solve that puzzle faster than most people.

 

[JamesB]

Thanks a lot for doing that Waterbug. The winding veggie would be it. The drawings cleared up something for me on the skimmer versus a water fall. I was thinking water fall but the skimmer looks like a good idea.

Because the pond overflows you get a skimmer for free and if you add an bottom drain it's easy.

Looking back at that earlier post and the drawings, I had missed the discussion on the skimmer with a bottom drain. The skimmer could be a home brew construction I guess. Integrating the skimmer to the liner etc is a new thing for me. I will need some help with understanding that I think.

A skimmer would allow construction to progress on the bog without disturbing the pond. The skimmer could be installed with a valve on the drain and when ready the drain could be opened. I will have a lot of leaves from the fairly young live oak and laurel oak trees. They appeared after Katrina. The skimmer would help a lot with that.

Thanks again Waterbug.

I don't think I will build the water puzzle though Mucky_Waters. :goldfish:

James