Railroad Cross Tie Retaining Wall
- Thread starter Big Lou
- Start date
HARO
Pondcrastinator
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Messages
- 5,439
- Reaction score
- 6,233
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
- Hardiness Zone
- 5b
- Country
Lou; if I were you I'd be asking those questions of the local by-law enforcer. Laws are different in different areas. I've seen the rotted ends you speak of filled in with concrete, while in other areas any wood-to-concrete application is banned. As for correcting the lean in the wall, there is only one solution; dig out behind the wall, straighten it with new "sleepers", (deadhead?) and replace the soil behind it. Easier said than done!!
John
John
Thanks John. A sloping yard, garden pond, flower beds and below grade neighboring property adds to the complexity. One lesson I learned was that years ago I should have listened to my wife and NOT planted trumpet vine. That &$);/! vine is to blame for our leaning fence problem. That's another story for another time.
Trumpet vine! Yeah., that's a very invasive plant. Took us several years, (maybe 5), to actually get rid of the one plant we had put in. Sucker kept on coming back.
The wall problem you have seems pretty serious and with a shoestring budget it's even tougher to solve.
A shovel and a strong back is probably going to be the best solution. Any chance of renting a small excavator for a weekend? Maybe hire a few hardy under the table day laborers? Most towns have a place you can drive by and pick up a few workers on any given morning.
Then just replace the whole thing.
If that isn't in the budget you could try this.
The only thing I can think of is to get some steel galvanized pipe like the black gas pipe. You can usually purchase 4' precut sections with threads on each end for end caps. Get some 5x5 or 6x6 steel plates with holes in them to accommodate the pipe. You might have to get a metal shop to cut and drill the plates for you. Get a post hole digger and drill a series of post holes about 3-4 ft behind the wall, about 2 - 3 ft apart. Drill a hole in the front of the ties, even with the post holes. Take a pipe and insert into hole, slip on plate, screw on end cap. Now sledge hammer the pipes through the hole in the ties and into the hillside until the plate is flush against the tie. You want to measure the holes so that the pipe ends on the backside of the posthole. Put on the end caps once they are in the post hole. You should maybe have 2-3 pipes come through each post hole. Now fill the holes up with concrete. On the tie side you would have a plate and the end cap on it. In the post hole, a solid post of concrete that the pipe passes into with the end cap that prevents it from sliding out of the concrete post.
This idea isn't much different then they use on old row homes here in Philly. When a middle home collapses or burns, and the house is torn down, they often run rods through the joist spaces and to the outside of the house where large plates and bolt are bolted on. This helps keep the walls from falling down since the wall wasn't originally an exterior wall.
Also see this link for suggestions: http://www.ehow.com/how_7536569_retain-walls-made-railroad-ties.html
You can also maybe reinforce the front wall by drilling a vertical hole down through the ties and pounding a some long rebar down through the ties and a foot or so into the ground. Do this every 2ft or so along the wall.
I don't think there is a good solution though for the rotted piece of wood. If its only 6" you might be able to reinforce the wall first, into hill, then cut out the rotted piece. Use a small bottle jack in the space to lift the tie(s) above it, (cut a piece of oak to place between the jack and tie so the jack doesn't just punch through the tie), lift the tie just a tad, enough to put in a small metal shim. Custom cut a new piece and slip it in. Remove the shims. drill a hole through the ties above and through the new piece. Drop in some rebar. Cut and seal the hole with some epoxy or plastic wood.
This might not be a perfect solution, but it will probably last as long as the ties will since it sounds like they already have quite a few years on them.
Craig
The wall problem you have seems pretty serious and with a shoestring budget it's even tougher to solve.
A shovel and a strong back is probably going to be the best solution. Any chance of renting a small excavator for a weekend? Maybe hire a few hardy under the table day laborers? Most towns have a place you can drive by and pick up a few workers on any given morning.
Then just replace the whole thing.
If that isn't in the budget you could try this.
The only thing I can think of is to get some steel galvanized pipe like the black gas pipe. You can usually purchase 4' precut sections with threads on each end for end caps. Get some 5x5 or 6x6 steel plates with holes in them to accommodate the pipe. You might have to get a metal shop to cut and drill the plates for you. Get a post hole digger and drill a series of post holes about 3-4 ft behind the wall, about 2 - 3 ft apart. Drill a hole in the front of the ties, even with the post holes. Take a pipe and insert into hole, slip on plate, screw on end cap. Now sledge hammer the pipes through the hole in the ties and into the hillside until the plate is flush against the tie. You want to measure the holes so that the pipe ends on the backside of the posthole. Put on the end caps once they are in the post hole. You should maybe have 2-3 pipes come through each post hole. Now fill the holes up with concrete. On the tie side you would have a plate and the end cap on it. In the post hole, a solid post of concrete that the pipe passes into with the end cap that prevents it from sliding out of the concrete post.
This idea isn't much different then they use on old row homes here in Philly. When a middle home collapses or burns, and the house is torn down, they often run rods through the joist spaces and to the outside of the house where large plates and bolt are bolted on. This helps keep the walls from falling down since the wall wasn't originally an exterior wall.
Also see this link for suggestions: http://www.ehow.com/how_7536569_retain-walls-made-railroad-ties.html
You can also maybe reinforce the front wall by drilling a vertical hole down through the ties and pounding a some long rebar down through the ties and a foot or so into the ground. Do this every 2ft or so along the wall.
I don't think there is a good solution though for the rotted piece of wood. If its only 6" you might be able to reinforce the wall first, into hill, then cut out the rotted piece. Use a small bottle jack in the space to lift the tie(s) above it, (cut a piece of oak to place between the jack and tie so the jack doesn't just punch through the tie), lift the tie just a tad, enough to put in a small metal shim. Custom cut a new piece and slip it in. Remove the shims. drill a hole through the ties above and through the new piece. Drop in some rebar. Cut and seal the hole with some epoxy or plastic wood.
This might not be a perfect solution, but it will probably last as long as the ties will since it sounds like they already have quite a few years on them.
Craig
After looking at some links, you might want to use 8ft pipe. Many sites suggest the segments into the hillside should go back 1.5 times the height of the wall. So for a 5' wall, that would be 7.5 ft.
Craig
Craig
Lou do you have rock directly behind the retaining wall? Not sure if codes are the same in every state for Contractors, pretty sure they're not, but rock helps stop expansion displacement of the wall. I use pea gravel, doesn't pack as tightly.
sissy
sissy
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
- Messages
- 33,086
- Reaction score
- 15,702
- Location
- Axton virginia
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 7A
- Country
I know I have seen some retaining walls built using square pipe with a a flat flange on the end of it and that has holes in it to put bolts and the long piece is it the ground behind the wall .But with the leaning wall the only way to resolve that is doing what Haro said .There really is no other way to push the dirt back .Also the county enforcer could tag the wall as a safety hazard and make you repair it .I know here they have done that with a retaining wall that is leaning and it has been a big debate between 2 now feuding neighbors because they do not want to pay for the repairs and each thinks the other should pay .It slopes towards the other guys property and the one who owns the retaining wall said the guy who used to live in the other house shared in the expense to build it to start with .They never put weep hole pipes in the ground coming out of the wall or running behind the wall to allow water to drain away and of course freeze and thaw water behind it pushed it out .
Yes. the pea gravel or other stone is usually placed behind the wall to provide a french style drain behind the wall with drain pipes at the bottom through the wall and into the gravel to allow the water to drain down through the stone and out from behind the wall.
What I suggested may or may not work depending on how bad the existing leaning is. If they didn't put the stone and proper drainage in when it was built, the wall might still continue to come apart over the years. Also, as you start drilling into the ties, you might find out the backside of the ties could be badly rotted and they might fall apart or be damaged/weakened more by the drilling and fix. You might only buy yourself a few more years.
And of course.. all this is supposing that in your area, the building inspector doesn't find out cause he'll probably make you tear it all down and fix it from the ground up.
The good thing is that a 5 ft wall isn't that high and if it collapsed, it probably wouldn't be that bad depending on how close it is to things that can be damaged on your neighbor's property. Typically, for wall's, the collapse zone is 1.5 times the height of the wall. So if your neighbor has 8-9 feet of clear yard in front of the wall, a collpase probably wouldn't be too damaging. Since this would be more of a landslide then a wall collapse, it would probably be less. It would also probably happen during heavy rains when the ground is saturated. Just warn any kids not to play next to the wall during the rains.
Craig
What I suggested may or may not work depending on how bad the existing leaning is. If they didn't put the stone and proper drainage in when it was built, the wall might still continue to come apart over the years. Also, as you start drilling into the ties, you might find out the backside of the ties could be badly rotted and they might fall apart or be damaged/weakened more by the drilling and fix. You might only buy yourself a few more years.
And of course.. all this is supposing that in your area, the building inspector doesn't find out cause he'll probably make you tear it all down and fix it from the ground up.
The good thing is that a 5 ft wall isn't that high and if it collapsed, it probably wouldn't be that bad depending on how close it is to things that can be damaged on your neighbor's property. Typically, for wall's, the collapse zone is 1.5 times the height of the wall. So if your neighbor has 8-9 feet of clear yard in front of the wall, a collpase probably wouldn't be too damaging. Since this would be more of a landslide then a wall collapse, it would probably be less. It would also probably happen during heavy rains when the ground is saturated. Just warn any kids not to play next to the wall during the rains.
Craig
No. Please read my next post that shoul explain our very involved situation.
Thank you.
sissy
sissy
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
- Messages
- 33,086
- Reaction score
- 15,702
- Location
- Axton virginia
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 7A
- Country
Have you tried looking on the net for an easy solution or maybe you tube has someone that fixed one with the same problems .There may be a new solution out there that may work in your case .You never know
All of you have overwhelmed me with your kindly advice and welcoming manner. Thank you.
Re: The area behind the retaining wall is very convoluted due to the multi-level grade, pond, tree and stone. I believe future photographs are the only way to explain that area.
____________
My new friends I must firs tell you that I am no longer able to physically work due to my Epilepsy, and replaced left shoulder. This is not only disheartening, it complicates everything to do with home ownership and life itself. Not to worry! I have come to terms with my lot in life. With that said it is time to give you the back story in which the retaining wall became an issue. Here goes............
TROUBLE IN RIVER CITY!
Had a late afternoon visit from the gentleman who owns the rental directly back of home. The neighboring house is 5 feet below grade. The owner asked my permission to cut back our beautiful Oklahoma Red Bulb tree branches to the property boarder. Seems the shade is preventing grass from growing in a six foot section of his side yard. In accordance with property law I am obligated to comply so I did. That was the easy part. Next, he asserted that my "leaky" pond makes the bare ground muddy. For at least the twelfth time to at least four different owners over past twenty years I explained that since the rental property is five feet below grade ground water from our subsoil seeps through the engineered retaining wall thus the reason for the mud. In a truly polite tone (while biting my tongue) i again explained that our garden pond does not "leak" yet in a multi day downpour it may overflow and seep through the retaining wall. Next, due to a ravenous trumpet vine a section of our rear fence "lends" over the property line. Now the fence is violating our property line. To correct this issue requires a long section of the fence be removed then possibly reinstalled. At the same time we notice our low cross tie retaining wall has a very slight outward lean at te top.
So after such happy news i returned home, had a chat with wifey the in the late of last night I came up with a plan to extend the height of the rear section of the pond to totally prevent overflow seepage (such an overflow equates to five to 8 gallons of water over a year), possibly install a ponp water level pump to pump out excess water, remove the boarder fence, cut out & posion the beautiful but PITA trumpet vine and see what we could do about the retaining wall.
Now our neighbor can enjoy the beauty of our back yard unecumbered by our fence and last but not least grass "may" now grow in his five feet below grade shady spot and we will be totally compliant with property law. Thanfully, a few years back the owner did accept my recomendatation to install a French drain along the perimeter of our retaining wall. At least he can no longer blame me for standing water. I left the best for last. His property is also feet higher at the street than at the house. This slope combined with his actual house being five feet below grade to our property "screams" "your propery is going to attract water". Ah, the joys of home ownership.
UPDATE: After cutting back our Oklahoma Redbud tree the owner discover the narrow side yard does not get much sun period. In a flipped tone of voice the gentleman said he would NOT plant the sod grass! He ten looked at me using the same uncaring tone and said, "Oh well, your tree will grow back.". I stood there dumbfounded. As if tha wasn't enough, his front yard oak tree drops sap on the side of our fence facing his property. He now insists we wash our fence to remove the sap from his tree! This is how the situation stands today,
Now totally retire, I am a proud 20 year veteran patriot with 13 additional years of very successful corporate work. One of my additional maladies is PTSD for which I underwent 18 months of weekly one on one theraphy. I never lost my cool with the renters or the property owner. Wifey was so proud of me. So now you are aware of the complexity of this entire issue.
Thank you for allowing me to vent my frustrations.
Re: The area behind the retaining wall is very convoluted due to the multi-level grade, pond, tree and stone. I believe future photographs are the only way to explain that area.
____________
My new friends I must firs tell you that I am no longer able to physically work due to my Epilepsy, and replaced left shoulder. This is not only disheartening, it complicates everything to do with home ownership and life itself. Not to worry! I have come to terms with my lot in life. With that said it is time to give you the back story in which the retaining wall became an issue. Here goes............
TROUBLE IN RIVER CITY!
Had a late afternoon visit from the gentleman who owns the rental directly back of home. The neighboring house is 5 feet below grade. The owner asked my permission to cut back our beautiful Oklahoma Red Bulb tree branches to the property boarder. Seems the shade is preventing grass from growing in a six foot section of his side yard. In accordance with property law I am obligated to comply so I did. That was the easy part. Next, he asserted that my "leaky" pond makes the bare ground muddy. For at least the twelfth time to at least four different owners over past twenty years I explained that since the rental property is five feet below grade ground water from our subsoil seeps through the engineered retaining wall thus the reason for the mud. In a truly polite tone (while biting my tongue) i again explained that our garden pond does not "leak" yet in a multi day downpour it may overflow and seep through the retaining wall. Next, due to a ravenous trumpet vine a section of our rear fence "lends" over the property line. Now the fence is violating our property line. To correct this issue requires a long section of the fence be removed then possibly reinstalled. At the same time we notice our low cross tie retaining wall has a very slight outward lean at te top.
So after such happy news i returned home, had a chat with wifey the in the late of last night I came up with a plan to extend the height of the rear section of the pond to totally prevent overflow seepage (such an overflow equates to five to 8 gallons of water over a year), possibly install a ponp water level pump to pump out excess water, remove the boarder fence, cut out & posion the beautiful but PITA trumpet vine and see what we could do about the retaining wall.
Now our neighbor can enjoy the beauty of our back yard unecumbered by our fence and last but not least grass "may" now grow in his five feet below grade shady spot and we will be totally compliant with property law. Thanfully, a few years back the owner did accept my recomendatation to install a French drain along the perimeter of our retaining wall. At least he can no longer blame me for standing water. I left the best for last. His property is also feet higher at the street than at the house. This slope combined with his actual house being five feet below grade to our property "screams" "your propery is going to attract water". Ah, the joys of home ownership.
UPDATE: After cutting back our Oklahoma Redbud tree the owner discover the narrow side yard does not get much sun period. In a flipped tone of voice the gentleman said he would NOT plant the sod grass! He ten looked at me using the same uncaring tone and said, "Oh well, your tree will grow back.". I stood there dumbfounded. As if tha wasn't enough, his front yard oak tree drops sap on the side of our fence facing his property. He now insists we wash our fence to remove the sap from his tree! This is how the situation stands today,
Now totally retire, I am a proud 20 year veteran patriot with 13 additional years of very successful corporate work. One of my additional maladies is PTSD for which I underwent 18 months of weekly one on one theraphy. I never lost my cool with the renters or the property owner. Wifey was so proud of me. So now you are aware of the complexity of this entire issue.
Thank you for allowing me to vent my frustrations.
HARO
Pondcrastinator
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Messages
- 5,439
- Reaction score
- 6,233
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
- Hardiness Zone
- 5b
- Country
Ah, yes. Idiots can be found everywhere! Thank God I have great neighbours.
John
John
Border wars - Hate them! Especially with a rental property owner. No easy solution. Sorry about the disability issues. You can still plan, desgin and supervise!! I would make sure you document everything in writing. What has been done, when it was done, etc.. do it in a bound notebook where pages can't be removed without tearing, sign and date all entries. That way, if anything ever winds up in court, you have a record. Even better if you can get the landlord and/or any tenants to sign the entries as well with regard to what was done.
Craig
Craig
Heaven forbid that his grass doesn't grow in his back yard, never mind that he's got a slew there. Hey i know! Next time he feels the need to express his opinion about how wet his swamp is back there, you could suggest to him some Lovely Bog plants that just love wet conditions Gotta love neighbors! Well..... At least tolerate them :grumble:
Seriously, I feel for you Lou, I myself have RA and Fibromyalgia, and you're right you have to except it and deal with what you've been given. Some days are worse than others, so on those days you just watch. The wonderful thing about fish and gardening is they'll be there when you come back to play and more beautiful than before
And yes Craig, Supervising is fun!! Lou you'll find after much hard work, there are a few people on this forum that would love to sitback and Supervise With You! I won't mention Who they are though
Gotta love neighbors! Well..... At least tolerate them :grumble:Seriously, I feel for you Lou, I myself have RA and Fibromyalgia, and you're right you have to except it and deal with what you've been given. Some days are worse than others, so on those days you just watch. The wonderful thing about fish and gardening is they'll be there when you come back to play and more beautiful than before
And yes Craig, Supervising is fun!! Lou you'll find after much hard work, there are a few people on this forum that would love to sitback and Supervise With You! I won't mention Who they are though
sissy
sissy
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2011
- Messages
- 33,086
- Reaction score
- 15,702
- Location
- Axton virginia
- Showcase(s):
- 1
- Hardiness Zone
- 7A
- Country
Gotta love those demanding neighbors and yep they are all over .I have a few myself .There dogs run loose and destroy things and since there are no leash laws in rural areas the only thing animal control can warn them about is the dogs chasing cars and if they cause an accident they will be responsible .Oh well neighbors .