Rocks and gravel on the bottom of the pond?

[Dave 54]

crsublette, on 16 Feb 2013 - 21:56, said:
Actually, most koi keepers do exaggerate due to the " it is better to be safe than sorry" theory. They do it to protect the begginers, which is understandable; although, it is quite dishonest and aggravating to folk who are not looking for the gradeschool version of pond keeping.

Problem with businesses, such as those in the video, is that they have the, " don't worry... you'll be ok... we got your back with our 'special' products " theory.

There are extremes on both sides.

You are so right but I dont think I've ever exaggerated to any beginners I think I've acctaually put more than a few off but any novice is welcome to come and talk to me , we are termed as senior Aquarists in the UK ( been at it so darn long lol) but I think you get a nose for who will make it.
At our club at the moment we have two novices under our wing boyfriend and girl friend and they have a lot of preset ideas that need to be gently knocked out of them hopefully when they come to visit in the spring we'll see
And your right about business we had one dealer who was knocking out Israeli koi as Japanese with a 400% mark up until other dealers gave us the nod , it was thought this guy was the bee's knees until then.
But your right it is in their interest to make money of the back of fish keepers of which ever school but some are damn right dishonest (they dont last long,others become great friends),we get great discounts in more than a few places ....

rgrds

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

No video shows up for me......

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Everybody else has addressed the maintenance and cleanliness of rock bottom ponds, but I'd like to comment on the cosmetic aspect of the rock bottom pond.
The guy in the video states, and I've heard this from others too, that rock or gravel ponds are more "natural" looking. Thing is, I've seen, and been in, countless natural ponds and I have never, ever, come across even one natural pond that had anything but a mud or algae mat bottom. Perhaps if you dig deep down under all that mud or algae you'll find some rocks, but they certainly aren't visible, and in most case where I've actually walked in the pond, the mud can be up to a few feet deep. The point is, rock bottom ponds are not natural, they never occur in nature, not that I've ever seen anyway. Rock bottom streams, rivers, or perhaps lakes, yes, but those are not ponds. Of course black rubber liners are not natural looking either, but how long does a submerged liner stay black? It generally only takes a few weeks for enough algae to form on a rubber line for it to resemble an algae coated mud bottom. So when it comes to what is more natural looking, a coating of algae on a liner is much more natural looking than rocks on the bottom.
Also while speaking of the cosmetic, or aesthetics, of ponds, I have noticed that when looking at the pond designs that appeal to me the most, the bottoms are hard to see, in that they appear bottomless. A shallow looking pond, or one that you can clearly see the bottom, just doesn't look as nice as one that appears bottomless.
If you look at the at the video below, which is produced by the same guy, you'll notice in the majority of the ponds featured in his video, that the bottoms of the ponds are not visible, they have that bottomless appearance. To me those ones look nicer than the couple of ponds in the video where you can clearly see the rock bottoms of the ponds. To me the goal should be to try and make the pond bottom invisible, and I believe (cleanliness and maintenance issues aside) that that is easier to accomplish with a bare liner, than it is by dumping a bunch of rocks on the bottom.

 

[shakaho]

Mucky Waters, I was about to say the same thing. Even on lakes, you might have a stony beach if there" a lot of wave action, but bottoms are muddy or sandy.

 

[Dave 54]

Mucky you have a point there my friend not only that the koi's colours are made that more intence by it being deeper dont you agree.
Nothing wrong with a nice coating of green Algae to finish it off

rgrds

Dave

 

[crsublette]

Rock bottom streams, rivers, or perhaps lakes, yes, but those are not ponds. Of course black rubber liners are not natural looking either, but how long does a submerged liner stay black? It generally only takes a few weeks for enough algae to form on a rubber line for it to resemble an algae coated mud bottom. So when it comes to what is more natural looking, a coating of algae on a liner is much more natural looking than rocks on the bottom.
Also while speaking of the cosmetic, or aesthetics, of ponds, I have noticed that when looking at the pond designs that appeal to me the most, the bottoms are hard to see, in that they appear bottomless. A shallow looking pond, or one that you can clearly see the bottom, just doesn't look as nice as one that appears bottomless.
If you look at the at the video below, which is produced by the same guy, you'll notice in the majority of the ponds featured in his video, that the bottoms of the ponds are not visible, they have that bottomless appearance. To me those ones look nicer than the couple of ponds in the video where you can clearly see the rock bottoms of the ponds. To me the goal should be to try and make the pond bottom invisible, and I believe (cleanliness and maintenance issues aside) that that is easier to accomplish with a bare liner, than it is by dumping a bunch of rocks on the bottom.

Yeah, I agree with ya man. A few thoughts though...
With a black liner pond, would you really want to see the bottom with all the trapped and settled debris ?? I don't think so... I have seen many pics of concrete and liner ponds and the concrete ponds had a better "aesthetic flow" to it versus the liner ponds with the weird wrinkles here and there. If it is allowed to be cover in algae, the liner wrinkles just look more odd. I have seen where folk do their best to get the wrinkles out while filling the pond with water and using a special tape to hide the wrinkles, but they are still quite obvious and gives a weirdness look... to me at least it does.
I have seen some pics of koi ponds in Japanese hotel lobbies. These were rock bottom ponds with a type of smooth colorful granite and very nice koi. They maintained a routine to prevent algae and biofilm growth on the rocks and the water was quite crystal clear. With it likely being part of some sort of disciplined japanase pond organization, I assume disciplined regiment of some type of low dose oxidizer/peroxide was used. Point is... the ponds really have a nice eye poping appeal to it if you're able to properly maintain it, which I imagine does take a fair amount of extra work.
"Rock bottom streams, rivers, or perhaps lakes, yes, but those are not ponds." I think when talking "natural looking", I think they're talking about having their pond bottom look like as it is in rock bottom streams, even though this isn't necesarilly technically "natrual".
I know, when I would go hiking at Lost Lake in New Mexico, the lake is actually near at 10,000 feet elevation. There is absolutely no algae visible to the human eye and you could see the floor out about 30 feet from the shore while seeing the fish swim around. The water must've been at least around 7 feet deep since I couldn't touch the bottom without my head being underwater. It was cold as heck too; heh, I did it on a dare. It is quite a sight to see. Of course, not as colorful as you would see the rocks in a stream, but it was really neat. Unfortunately, I think New Mexico cut the budget to the Park and Wildlife department since the last time I went there the path was pretty dangerous with trees fallen over and everything. It's been about 12 years since I've been there. Those were good times.

 

[adavisus]

Given a couple of years, this graceful cattail, a sedate and well behaved form of cattails meshed its roots into a few inches of gravel making a dainty 2-300 lb mass to lift out for dividing. With an axe.

 

[JohnHuff]

From my experience as an indoor tank and outdoor pond owner:
1) All indoor tanks must have gravel because the gravel serves as a substrate for bacteria to live on. You have to clean this gravel once a week. It's amazing how much detritus is vacuumed up in just a week's time. You can imagine how much detritus can accumulate in a pond, in a season.
2) I only know one guy who doesn't vacuum his gravel. The reason he doesn't is because the floor of his tank is covered with plants and the plants feed on the decomposing matter in the gravel.
3) There's supposed to be anaerobic bacteria under all that crap that eats up the nitrate. I've actually seen it online somewhere. It's a tube or jar of white gravel and you can see the line of black anaerobic bacteria at the bottom. But that stuff is supposed to kill your fish too if you disturb it.
I inherited by outdoor pond from the previous owner of this house. The pond was built by a run of the mill landscaper. After the first year or so, I removed so much gravel that I could line twenty feet of walkway with it, both sides. But I've left about a layer in the pond and I vacuum that once a season.
--------------------
Edit, I haven't been posting for a while due to the cold outdoor weather. So we have warning points now? When did that happen and what's it supposed to mean? I only see it under my profile?

 

[addy1]

--------------------
Edit, I haven't been posting for a while due to the cold outdoor weather. So we have warning points now? When did that happen and what's it supposed to mean? I only see it under my profile?

Just went and looked, yep warning points, no clue what it means, unless the mods can warn you, if you have been bad. Have not seen anything posted about it. Ian just did an update maybe it came with the update.

 

[sissy]

where are the warning points listed i have not seen them .Maybe it is due to the recent status update problems .Just because addy didn't get her drugs . :razz:

 

[addy1]

where are the warning points listed i have not seen them .Maybe it is due to the recent status update problems .Just because addy didn't get her drugs . :razz:

Look at your profile Sissy, under your picture it shows warning points. So far I have zero................so far lol

 

[JohnHuff]

Maybe someone who likes to live dangerously can try it out...

 

[addy1]

Wonder what we would need to do to earn one? Maybe be mean and nasty?

 

[sissy]

oh ok did not see it geeze looking where you post must be senior eyes now . :razz: bad me bad me .I guess you only see your own then

 

[addy1]

Yep private warnings lol.........wonder what the you are out of here warning number is?