A LITTLE INFO ON KOI / GOLDFISH HYBRIDS


koiguy1969

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if you find some you like, they might just be the answer to a ponder who doesnt want to worry about overpopulating the pond, or caring for fry. it seems they are actually even hardier than koi or goldfish varieties. get bigger than goldfish but nat quite as big as koi...might just be the perfect pond fish........take a look!
 

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You know I keep reading that Hybrids don't have wiskers and are sterile, Well I will have to argue at least 50% of that, I have more than one Hybrid that has whiskers, and really wanting to try and see if I can get one to spawn back just to prove that hybrids aren't 100% sterile. I can't prove that all are sterile or not, and many say they are, but I do have some doubts.
 
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It would be really nice if hybrids did not have barbels, as it would make it cut and dry that whiskers = koi, period. For dummies like me however, if in doubt, let it grow, and post pictures LOL.
 

koiguy1969

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going strictly by color pallet and conformity of patterrns... kahaku or sanke and sarassas would seem to be the best match ups for a good looking hybrid.. too bad i no longer have anything in the goldfish family or i'd consider an experiment... (come spring that is)
 
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We have 3 koi (butterfly male, and male & female standard fin) that are similar to a sanke, or atleast are white, orange and black, but the color percentages may not be correct, and ONE sarassas but I have no idea of that ones gender. Of all the gold fish babies we have gotten this year, not one looks like the sarassas. If I could figure out the gender of the sarassas, I would be game to try.
 

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I'd like to see photo's of some nice looking hybrids. Sounds interesting and hope somebody here who has koi and goldfish will do some testing.
 
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I would love for anyone to breed any koi with any gold fish, knowing for sure who the only parents are.... and see if any of the hybrids have barbels LOL. If no one does it sooner, I am game for next year. Hubby is putting in a couple of small plant ponds (10x15 liner sized), and I dont mind tossing in a couple of fish to see what happens. All the better if someone with a clue about genetics (color) tossing in their 2 cents, so that any resulting babies have a chance at being "pretty".
 
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I'll be interested to see what you get!!

I'd go with a shubunkin and a red/orange koi. That's all you get for 2 cents! It's also all I got!

But I've heard, (and haven't seen anything to prove otherwise), that the hybirds will always be very muted colors, mostly drab olive brown colors and no barbels.

Craig
 
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That is my point Craig. I've "heard" a few different things, but havent talked to anyone who has offered up front that the parent fish were isolated and XXX is the result. We had a few (aka 3) super ugly babies who also were not quite shaped right (big hump behind the head), with barbels, but NOW they look like koi to me and are getting pretty. Only 3" now, so will see what else develops in them. They were the result of a pond spawn, so who knows what the parents were for sure.
 
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Just an FYI - Koi usually don't get more color as time goes on. Goldfish can and will.

Koi typically lose color with only a few exceptions.
If koi are brown, they'll tend to stay brown. They might get prettier but that is usually because the scale pattern adds interest as the Koi gets bigger. Or as they grow, small amounts of color become more obvious and distinct. I.e. it was always there. Sometimes black can fade and unmask a color underneath.
Red almost always tends to fade with age and never just appears. The higher quality koi are those with strong reds that don't fade out.
Black can do a bunch of different things and can fade with age, get stronger with age, even change with temperature.

But the reds/oranges usually don't get stronger. They usually fade and can even disappear totally.

So if you see color appearing in them, especially red, I'd say that's the goldfish side, and not the koi side.
If they have barbels and are getting color as they grow, (and not black just fading thus exposing an underneath color), I'd say that was pretty unusal.

As with anything, and especially when it comes to color in koi, anything is possible!

I'm sure that the "things heard" have been based at one time on something scientifcally done but now it's consdiered common knowledge maybe in the scientfic fish communtiy so why would anyone set up an experiment today to look at this. Especially if you are going to get mostly brown, unsaleable fish!

So I think we are counting on you to now to recreate an experiment and put it on line!

Craig
 
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You know I keep reading that Hybrids don't have wiskers and are sterile, Well I will have to argue at least 50% of that, I have more than one Hybrid that has whiskers, and really wanting to try and see if I can get one to spawn back just to prove that hybrids aren't 100% sterile. I can't prove that all are sterile or not, and many say they are, but I do have some doubts.
If you have them with barbels, it would be interesting to see some pics! It would also be cool to see if you can isolate 3-4 and see if they breed. My guess is that if they do, you really have Koi. If you still think they are breeding hybirds, you might want to get some DNA testing. You could have a valuable fish there and be able to start a new species!

Craig
 
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I am not so sure of all of that. Several of our pond spawn koi, or at least I believe they are koi, started out as a light brown, with an even lighter, almost tan sides fading to white bellies, and now are VERY black on top. I get confused by some of the names... Matsuba... I may be using it incorrectly... where the top and most of the sides are black... I have several like this, with heads varying from white, grey, and yellow... This same color pattern again, on several.. The black is VERY BLACK. That said, with this same color pattern, I have a variety of scale styles... Some have tiny, every day scales that you see on most fish... some have huge scales... I have a horrible time trying to get pics in the QT but will go try to take a couple...

But also, the koi who were spawned in QT were ALL yellow til about half an inch or so. The orange is JUST starting to come in, as well as minor dots of grey (if they follow the basement fish, those grey areas should go black) and white spots on a couple just started recently (same white spots both moms had). One mom is a hana shusui, the other is an orange Matsuba that looks a lot like the hana shusui.... Dads are an orange matsuba, 2 light blue dotsui, and a dark yellow... another dad that got into the chase part time, I dont know his color name... each scale is deep brown to black, when the light hits him just right, he almost looks copperish... I have one baby that is starting to look like him...
 
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Couldnt get pics (too dark downstairs now, so coming out blurry), so took a video, and photobucket gets 25-30% uploaded and then crashes/error message... Posting an older pic. Just ignore all the comets, and one shubunkin. There is one near black koi in the center, anything else nearly black is a comet or all orange. The ones I am likely incorrectly calling matsubas are obvious... they all started out the brown/tan I described above (well except one we caught larger, but also has that black saddle).

 
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If you look at the 3 in the lower left corner, you can see their larger scales... they started out that brown tone, and the first change was one by one, the large white scales on the side came in... tops were still brown... then the tops were black with the new shaped/bigger scales... face color is still getting brighter...
 
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Dave can probably espouse on colors a lot a more than I can. I can see yellow coming to orange. I.e. you always had color from the start. It's changing as they grow but it's not brown to start.

There are four colors of pigmentation.

Melanin (black), xanthin (yellow), lipochrome (orange), and erythrin (red)

All Koi colors are made up of these four. Because you can have layers of these, the colors blend, and can disappear.

Your tan/brown was probably primarily black with surface yellow. As the yellow fades the black become predominant.

The Koi that are all yellow probably had a thin layer of yellow on top of red. Again as the yellow fades, the underlaying red appears.
White showing up is also probably a fading of a thin surface color.

Here's a fairly short, pretty much on point article on Koi color: http://www.nfkc.info/Where'd%20the%20color%20come%20from.htm

Colors are amazing and frustrate the hell out of Koi breeders! It's one of the reasons why breeders want to grow their Koi as fast as possible so they can see how the colors will change with the size. It's not usually age but size that changes the colors.

Craig
 
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I think most of the ones in your pic are ghost koi. I have always liked them a lot.

That doesn't surprise me they started out brown.

Scale wise, that's different then color. They don't grow in scales. They were always there from birth. They just aren't that noticiable at a young age. As they grow, the scale definition becomes more visible and if the colors change, they can stand out more.

Craig
 
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I can understand the colors being as layers, but still confused. Will check out the link. The ones with the bigger scales tho.... they had tiny scales when smaller, and the big scales came in black? I have a few matsubas but at the time these guys were hatched, nothing with scales like this. Normal scales, and the dotsui row of scales down the back (no other scales on that fish).. the doisu is the one in my avatar (when younger)...
 
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Missed part of what you were saying... so as the tiny scales grew, would it be safe to say the black pigment was expressed???
 

koiguy1969

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Just an FYI - Koi usually don't get more color as time goes on. Goldfish can and will.

Koi typically lose color with only a few exceptions.
If koi are brown, they'll tend to stay brown. They might get prettier but that is usually because the scale pattern adds interest as the Koi gets bigger. Or as they grow, small amounts of color become more obvious and distinct. I.e. it was always there. Sometimes black can fade and unmask a color underneath.
Red almost always tends to fade with age and never just appears. The higher quality koi are those with strong reds that don't fade out.
Black can do a bunch of different things and can fade with age, get stronger with age, even change with temperature.

But the reds/oranges usually don't get stronger. They usually fade and can even disappear totally.

So if you see color appearing in them, especially red, I'd say that's the goldfish side, and not the koi side.
If they have barbels and are getting color as they grow, (and not black just fading thus exposing an underneath color), I'd say that was pretty unusal.

As with anything, and especially when it comes to color in koi, anything is possible!

I'm sure that the "things heard" have been based at one time on something scientifcally done but now it's consdiered common knowledge maybe in the scientfic fish communtiy so why would anyone set up an experiment today to look at this. Especially if you are going to get mostly brown, unsaleable fish!

So I think we are counting on you to now to recreate an experiment and put it on line!

Craig
Each Koi is born with a fixed number of chromataphores which remains relatively constant throughout its life. As Koi age and grow, these chromataphores have to cover a larger area of skin; therefore, there is a tendency for the coloration to become paler (due to the chromataphores becoming less dense) or to fragment. This helps to explain why many stunning young Koi are not as attractive when they are slightly larger. Buying young fish from a known "high quality bloodline" usually means you are buying fish with more dense chromataphores, which results in color remaining even when the Koi has grown.

some varieties (e.g. Sanke and Showa) it is common for the pattern to change considerably as the fish grows due to the surface color fragmenting and revealing a deeper, different color

*An excerpt from the article "The United Colors of Koi" by David Pool, Ph.D., Tetra.
 
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You know I keep reading that Hybrids don't have wiskers and are sterile, Well I will have to argue at least 50% of that, I have more than one Hybrid that has whiskers,
I agree. Even when 2 Koi breed it's not 100% certain all the offspring will have whiskers, or 2 eyes or the right number of fins. Hybrid just throws more variables into the mix.

and really wanting to try and see if I can get one to spawn back just to prove that hybrids aren't 100% sterile. I can't prove that all are sterile or not, and many say they are, but I do have some doubts.
Anyone saying 100% sterile would be underestimating mother nature. Smarter to just say sterile. Mules are considered sterile, but a couple of females have had offspring when mated with a donkey or horse. But it would be interesting to know how common sterility is in Koi-Goldfish hybrids.
 

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