A LITTLE INFO ON KOI / GOLDFISH HYBRIDS

Discussion in 'Spawning' started by koiguy1969, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. koiguy1969

    Craig58

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    Those black ones do look like they definitly have barbels on them and they do look more like goldfish then koi to me. Looks like you are part of the 1%!!!

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 31, 2012
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  2. koiguy1969

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    Yea, like I stated, the black one and the cream one for sure have clear barbels. Patches the calico/sanke looking one the barbels are so small but they are there. the rest I don't see any and I have watched and watched for many hours. Her is a pic of the Mom. If you look in my showcase thread there is a far better pic of her when she actually had sumi showing, now there are only a few shimmies, really a poor koi to be using for breeding but she has provided some valuable experience and for an accidental spawning, I'm not complaining.
     

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    fishin4cars, Oct 31, 2012
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  3. koiguy1969

    Craig58

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    I'm wondering if the barbels are a result of having a butterfly koi in the breeding? As you know the butterfly has, I believe, Asian Carp lines in them. I wonder if this makes a difference in the goldfish/butterfly hybrids over say a traditional koi/goldfish hybrid?

    I don't know, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Nov 1, 2012
    #43
  4. koiguy1969

    Fishylove

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    That makes logical sense Craig. I just hope all goes smooth next spring with the ponds and all, id like to try my hand at raising some fry.
     
    Fishylove, Nov 1, 2012
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  5. koiguy1969

    capewind

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    Good question Craig... one of the arguements regarding koi/goldfish cross being sterile relates to being different species/different chromosone counts... What is the chrome count of a "standard fin koi" verses that of the asian carp? could be the same, but wondering about a specific mutation in some of the butterfly koi.... I hate to use this as an analogy, but take a person with down sydrome... an extra chromosone... clearly/undisputably, they are absolutely human... I dont know the statistics of any percentage of people being affect with DS being sterile, but do know some have gone on to have children of their own (some with the correct number of chromosones at that),
     
    capewind, Nov 1, 2012
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  6. koiguy1969

    Craig58

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    i only throw this out because I think both examples we have from people on the board with hybrids with barbels had butterfly koi in the mix. Otherwise it would have never occurred to me.

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Nov 1, 2012
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  7. koiguy1969

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    Craig, That's a great observation. I hadn't even thought about that. I don't know what the chromosome count is on Standard koi versus Butterfly koi. I've read multiple arguments about hybrids but I think this is the first time that someone has brought up that there could be a link between butterfly koi and common goldfish that possibly could be the reason I have some with and some without Barbels. Now the question is, are they sterile or not? Guess only time will tell, and really I hate to devote the time and the pond space to try and breed them just to find out. BUT, I would like to find out just to satisfy my own curiosity.
     
    fishin4cars, Nov 1, 2012
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  8. koiguy1969

    capewind

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    I had a couple of babies early in the season that I was thinking could be hybrids (blah brown with a hump behind their heads), but as they have gotten bigger, they look like koi to me (have barbels, gaining color and have lost the hump). I dont know who the parents were being a pond spawn, but they have shorter/standard fins. Our comets and shubunkins all have long fins... the kio out there at the time were about half standard fin/half butterfly... I was thinking next spring to take some good pics when they are bigger and let others decide what they are LOL.
     
    capewind, Nov 1, 2012
    #48
  9. koiguy1969

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    Cape, In my own observations, butterfly koi don't start showing their long fins until about 1-1 1/2" long, even then it will be several weeks for the long fins and tail to really start developing enough to clearly see they are longer than standard. also, even if two butterfly koi breed doesn't mean they will all be butterfly. In fact if 50% turn out to be butterfly that's a pretty high percentage. Two years ago when the Butterfly and standard koi breed I ended up with about a dozen butterfly and maybe 30 or so standard. None of the standard were keepers so I re-homed all of them, I kept the three Gin Rin Butterfly Koi and still have all three. Out of three years of spawnings I have only one standard koi that I have kept that I will continue to grow out. I have a few from this year still in the pond I haven't removed yet but I already have a home for them when I can remove them. My neighbor likes the ugly ones to put in his pond for weed control, He thinks the ugly ones have a better chance of surviving predators.
     
    fishin4cars, Nov 1, 2012
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  10. koiguy1969

    capewind

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    Just wanted to bump this conversation back up regarding hybrids... While the fish are under an inch, I have a hard time identifying some of them... Some I know right away if they are comet, shubunkin, or koi, and some I have had to wait to rule out hybrids... Have one I have been trying to get pics of for a bit, but the pics all come out blurry... Initially, I was sure it was a comet... then, started to wonder... its color went to a metallic SILVER... thought ok... maybe there was a recessive gene for that??? So just kept watching... Now that this baby is in the 55, and not the kiddie pool, I have a much better view... There is no doubt about it, ONE parent was a comet... its entire BODY is shaped like a comet. The other day however, saw something neat... it has a KOI mouth... Well, was just staring at the little guy again, and he has tiny barbels too... He is just coming up on 3" now and cant quite take the full sized pellets yet, but as soon as he can, will get moved down to the basement, and will grab pics to share. Wish I could catch him now, but it is a pain to try to catch individual fish in the 55 until I have to. I, myself want a better look at those barbels... the camera lens has much better eye sight then I do LOL.
     
    capewind, Nov 26, 2012
    #50
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  11. koiguy1969

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    I noticed just a few days ago that Patches HAS barbels, I always thought she was a koi but kept not seeing them, as you, she is now right at 2.5" and just showing the barbels, One last one I really want to see barbels on is my ugly ducklin, it's a grey and white and Hoping it will turn out being a shiro Utsuri since I don't have one anymore. Have you noticed any of your REALLY dark babies changing, I started out with 6 darkies, now down to three and the last one turned into a calico looking shubunkin. First time I have seen that, usually they look like yours with the orange and black scales down their back. This one started getting orange blotches and got a real marble effect. I like being able to see the select babies for a while in the fish tank as you can really get a good look at them and what they are.
     
    fishin4cars, Nov 27, 2012
    #51
  12. koiguy1969

    capewind

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    I think all of my dark babies will be ki matsubas or similar (a couple may be gin)... From there, a bunch yellows to mid orange in tone (ogons, yambuki and orenji).. One, who I forget how to spell the name... starts with a K... white skinned fish, two oranges spots (one defined spot on head like a tancho, and one defined spot just before the doral fin)... a few sanke... and a few I just dont know what they are yet... only 2" in size, but already have massive butterfly finnage, so the fish themself are still pretty tiny... For the most part they are white BUT, I am seeing a clear blue coming in on the doral line, and the bluest one has a black speck behind the head, which I think may be the start of a black zipper for the doitsu pattern... We have at least three blue boys, all doitsu, two are nearly scalesless, and one, I call a shusui, but it is totally lacking in red, orange, or yellow (below the lateral line is a cream color at best, but from the top he looks shusui)... Time will tell what all the babies will do...
     
    capewind, Nov 27, 2012
    #52
  13. koiguy1969

    Dave 54

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    Lov those Yamabuki Ogons added one to our pond last year hoping for great things out of him at a later date when we show him at our annual koi show here in Plymouth (when its warm in July) lol
    you'll have tp ost some before and after Photos of these guys would love to see them all

    rgrds

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Dec 5, 2012
    #53
  14. koiguy1969

    capewind

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    I really wish I had a better camera. I want to post pics of the grey guy as I am 99.9% certain it is a hybrid. Everything about him looks like our comets (adults and other babies), except for its color, mouth and whiskers...

    Nothing has changed much with the oldest babies that I have posted pics of already, except growing. Most of those (May spawn) are 4 - 6" now. Dont know if that is a good or bad growth rate for the age, I just know they seem to not be growing at all, and then all of a sudden it's like hey, when did you get that big??? LOL

    The mid sized babies, I cant get a decent pic of:-( Those were June/July spawnings, and are mostly tiny still at 2.5-3.5"

    I think the camera is on its way out too... we bought more babies (standard and butterfly) for variety and no matter what settings I try, I cant get a decent pic of them either... Some really pretty babies in the mix too... lots of shusui, asagi, gin rins in multi colors... and colors I cant spell without looking them up LMAO. White skin, orange spots... starts with a "K" LOL... Some hariwake (sp?)... My favorite is a cute little Tancho (butterfly) ...
     
    capewind, Dec 6, 2012
    #54
  15. koiguy1969

    LibraKoi

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    Hi All,

    Just happened across this thread and found it interesting. When I started my pond in 2006 I started with 4 shubunkins, 2 of which died the first few days. When I returned them the shubunkins were sold out so I purchased 2 koi. So we had 4 fish total in the pond. I'll send some pics of those 4. Probably about 3 years later we had little ones, a lot. They are all dark with some gold highlights, some all dark. They have barbless and do spawn. The blue heron came and took the female shubunkin (blue one) and then the babies stopped. Since then we have purchased more koi. This year the heron or someone took the last shubunkin, leaving only the koi and the hybrid babies. Over the last two years we have one surviving baby, just noticed this spring--it's about 4-5". This year spawn has left us with 5 survivors I have posted on another thread. https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/12016-some-survivors/ . I'm not sure who the parents are, only know that I have seen two orange koi and about three dark ones with eggs this season. I at first thought the dark babies were goldfish--but have been told they are koi or at least have barbells and someone told me that goldfish and koi move their mouths in different directions. Have no idea if this is true, but when he examined them netted, told me they all had koi moving mouths. Sounds funny, but who knows. Maybe one of you?

    First Photo is of the 2 original koi. Second Photos is the two shubunkins one of the original koi and baby. Third is of the two original koi.

    Rest are the babies.
    The sixth photo is the female shubunkin (blue) the only mother option.
    12th and 13th photo possible dad.

    I have plenty more, but tired of looking LOL Just thought it interesting. If anyone else has photos please share. Or any comments.
     

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    LibraKoi, Jun 22, 2013
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  16. koiguy1969

    Mmathis TurtleMommy

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    Wonder if it makes a difference which fish is the daddy and which fish is the mommy?

    Take the donkey - horse crosses. (OK, I always forget which is which, so bear with me). A male donkey, bred with a female horse gives a "mule." A male horse, bred with a female donkey gives a "hinny." There are some differences in their physical characteristics. And as far as has been researched, all male mules and male hinnies ARE sterile. All female hinnies ARE sterile. But sometimes a female mule CAN get pregnant and bear a viable offspring.
     
    Mmathis, Jun 23, 2013
    #56
  17. koiguy1969

    HARO Pondcrastinator

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    I work part-time at a garden center,where I do whatever needs to be done in the water-garden section. A month ago I noticed a fish in our display pond with metallic silver in his/her pectorals, which is fairly common in koi. The thing is, there are only two koi in this pond, both males! All the other fish are goldfish. Earlier this week I managed to net this fish, and brought it home to examine. The head, when viewed from above, is pointier at the mouth than any goldfish I have seen, and it has TWO barbels, not the four found in koi. It is about 4" in length. I've placed it with my five lemon comets (all females) to see if anything develops. Will post pictures when I get a chance.
    John
     
    HARO, Jun 23, 2013
    #57
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  18. koiguy1969

    LibraKoi

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    That's interesting. I wonder if it may be from a couple years back and perhaps there were other fish in that pond at the time? Would love to see pics though. I can't really tell is mine have 2 or 4 barbells. I never noticed.
     
    LibraKoi, Jun 23, 2013
    #58
  19. koiguy1969

    ZmanArt007 Fish Keeper and Filmmaker

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    Hey Everyone, I know this is an old thread, sorry for reviving it, but I was researching this topic on google and found this thread. Interesting stuff here!

    Wow, those dark babies are really interesting, especially since they did all turn out blackish or brownish, which is believed to be common in hybrids. Your babies look very koi-like, especially in their heads, but their fins and body do look somewhat like a goldfish. I find this very intriguing especially since they do spawn.

    Those hybrids are incredible! First glance they look like koi fish, but then they look like a goldfish at the same time. It confuses what I think I know about recognizing the differences of the two species. It blurs the lines. Your stubby black female almost looks like a Black Moor goldfish with a koi's head :D

    I've got goldfish and koi and they both reproduce, but I have never noticed any hybrids. Due to several different isolated incidences most of my fishes' offspring haven't been lucky enough to make it. I am adding fancy goldfish into the mix soon. It will be very interesting to see if any of my goldfish and koi ever spawn at the same time and if the "milt" ever gets a little mixed during all the fun. :p Anything is possible.
     
    ZmanArt007, Jul 5, 2014
    #59
  20. koiguy1969

    Dave 54

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    The question about hybrids has been going on for many years now so this is nothing new to us old timers weve even kept them before now .
    Yes hybrid koi/goldfish are at first glance either one or the other but the lines arent blurred as you claim they stand out as hybrids to those who know their fish and would not pass muster in the show arena
    Now in saying that it is also fact that all hybrid koi/goldfish will be born mules in that they cannot be bred from so your not going to get a new species if thats what your looking to do here.
    So being undable to breed they wiill eventually live out their days and then pass on to that great Koi/goldfish pond in the sky minus the offspring, other species need top pass on their genes to survive .
    So are you wasting your time in breeding them yes/no in that they nice to look at but your koi and goldfish should be thinking about passing genes on for their continued existance not a cul-de-sac existance where their offspring cannot breed .
    I hope this helps you ?

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
    Dave 54, Jul 5, 2014
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