Algal Blooms

[addy1]

Most of my shubunkin babies show color pretty quick, i.e. when they are tiny. The gf stay, black, grayish until bigger.

 

[joesandy1822]

Most of my shubunkin babies show color pretty quick, i.e. when they are tiny. The gf stay, black, grayish until bigger.

AWESOME. Then I probably have BOTH! I have lots of black ones, but I've seen at least a couple that are tiny and colored. They are so cute! Wow, I can't believe I am so excited about baby fish.....

BTW addy, most of the plants are doing wonderfully! There are a couple that are still on the "recovering" side of things, but they are looking better each day. Even the forget-me-not is starting to sprout some green leaves, and it was completely black. It's amazing how life can be lurking in what looks totally DEAD.

 

[addy1]

lol this was not a good time to send plants, spring is so much easier and better. Glad they are recovering for you. Pond plants I don't give up on until they rot.

 

[HARO]

.



. THE ALGAE BLOOM OUTCOMPETED THE HORNWORT FOR NUTRIENTS!

Sounds good in theory, but I have just one question: If the algae 'outcompeted' the hornwort, why did the ALGAE die off? Not trying to be a smart-ass, just wondering!
John

 

[joesandy1822]

.



. THE ALGAE BLOOM OUTCOMPETED THE HORNWORT FOR NUTRIENTS!

Sounds good in theory, but I have just one question: If the algae 'outcompeted' the hornwort, why did the ALGAE die off? Not trying to be a smart-ass, just wondering!
John

I'm assuming the algae finally died off because of all the other myriad of plants I have in the pond. Hornwort was not the only species of plant in my pond. I also have 6 water lilies, water hyacinths, four leaf clover, cattails, parrot's feather, watercress, and multitudes of other plants planted in the rocks around the edge of the pond. Plus, as it turns out after more inspection, the hornwort is not all dead as I thought it might be. It's just laying flat as opposed to standing on end like a forest, as it was before the bloom. I'm sure some of it dead, but plenty of it is not. It is probably laying down because of lack of sun, I don't know. I would LOVE to know exactly what happened, but I am only just learning myself. The whole thing is fascinating to watch. On top of that, the weather has been much cooler than it was even a couple weeks ago. I'm sure it all comes into play.

 

[HARO]

Hornwort WILL lie on the bottom if it is deprived of light, and it can start to die back under low-light conditions, so that may explain your phenomenon. I just wish there was some way to measure the fertility of our ponds (without taking out a mortgage on the house) so that we had a better idea of what was going on!
John

 

[crsublette]

There are theories of freshwater algae spontanseously collapsing, that is the algae is so hardy to stay alive under nutrient restrictions that eventually the algae pushes itself of absorbing too much nutrients that it causes itself to collapse.

I truely doubt typical complex aquatic plants nor terresterial plants are as efficent as algae in regards to consuming nutrients. This is why systems still require a tremendous volume of plants and even other algae species to combat the more obvious and invasive algae.

Hornwort WILL lie on the bottom if it is deprived of light, and it can start to die back under low-light conditions, so that may explain your phenomenon. I just wish there was some way to measure the fertility of our ponds (without taking out a mortgage on the house) so that we had a better idea of what was going on!
John

I think that is likely the more reasonable theory.

Hornwort is actually quite interesting. From what I have read on planted aquarium forums by folk that grow the stuff, Hornwort simply only needs an extremely dim night light to simply survive, though need more to truely thrive.

I bet the Hornwort lacked the appropriate nutrients, including sufficient light, to maintain it's current plant mass so the plant reduced its plant mass that is more manageable and acceptable to its environment.

 

[joesandy1822]

Hornwort WILL lie on the bottom if it is deprived of light, and it can start to die back under low-light conditions, so that may explain your phenomenon. I just wish there was some way to measure the fertility of our ponds (without taking out a mortgage on the house) so that we had a better idea of what was going on!
John

ME TOO!!! I have that thought SO many times during this process. It sure would be nice to know what nutrients are/were actually in there. Otherwise, it's kind of like trying to fit together a puzzle with missing pieces.

And I also had the thought that lack of sunlight (which the algae would account for) would make the hornwort fall down. It makes sense. In just the couple days that the pond has been clear, the hornwort is actually starting to pop back up. I'm sure some of it is dead, but I think the vast majority is still alive. I groomed the lilies yesterday, and felt some of the hornwort. It's still green and soft for the most part. Of course, there's so much in there that I didn't want to mess with all of it.....want to enjoy the CLEAR water as much as possible before it decides to go green again. But what I touched felt normal. It sure does hold a lot of "dirt" or maybe it's dead algae? But boy, do the babies like it!

 

[joesandy1822]

There are theories of freshwater algae spontanseously collapsing, that is the algae is so hardy to stay alive under nutrient restrictions that eventually the algae pushes itself of absorbing too much nutrients that it causes itself to collapse.

I truely doubt typical complex aquatic plants nor terresterial plants are as efficent as algae in regards to consuming nutrients. This is why systems still require a tremendous volume of plants and even other algae species to combat the more obvious and invasive algae.




I think that is likely the more reasonable theory.

Hornwort is actually quite interesting. From what I have read on planted aquarium forums by folk that grow the stuff, Hornwort simply only needs an extremely dim night light to simply survive, though need more to truely thrive.

I bet the Hornwort lacked the appropriate nutrients, including sufficient light, to maintain it's current plant mass so the plant reduced its plant mass that is more manageable and acceptable to its environment.

I had hornwort in my aquarium but it had high light and it did great. Never knew it could tolerate that little of light. I actually purchased special lights so I could grow plants. But I had others that definitely had to have it anyway. Interesting. I tried to find some really specific and detailed info about hornwort, but came up empty handed.

:blueflower: BTW, I took your advice a couple weeks ago and slowly got my KH up to about 10 drops (thank you for the help!). When I saw the hornwort for the first time, I wondered if that could've hurt it, but after reading its basic requirements, I'm pretty certain that would NOT affect it. Apparently it can tolerate a wide range of pH, KH, GH. Pretty hardy plant from the little bit I found.

 

[joesandy1822]

Thought I'd put a quick update here. It is neat to be able to look back and see the progression of things.

It has been exactly a month since the pea soup algae and then the brownish water which followed left our pond. It has been totally clear to the bottom since then. We have really been enjoying the pond, especially now that the frogs have found us.

Now, as I figured would eventually happen, we are stricken with string algae. And it seems to be getting thicker by the day. I just reach in a pull some out when it gets bothersome, but my concern is that it is growing all over my hornwort "forest", as I call it. The hornwort, which I initially thought died due to being starved by the pea soup, was actually not dead. It was just laying on the floor of the pond, probably due to lack of sunlight. It came back nicely once the pond cleared. But now the string algae are covering it. I tried to remove some of it, but it is impossible to remove string algae from long strands of hornwort.

Couple questions. Is string algae harmful to anything, or just unsightly? Is it going to kill any plants that it is attached to? If so, how do I remove it from the plants, especially the hornwort? I've read about peroxide, but I'm really trying to not dump stuff in there unless necessary.

Like Charles once said, I will "experience" many types of algae in this little adventure. Wow, is this so true! I'd rather have this than the pea soup, but even this is starting to get out of control.

Thanks for any suggestions. I am happy to have this thread to refer back to next year. It will give me hope when I think the green water will NEVER go away. Thank you to everybody who has contributed. Hopefully it has been helpful to more than just me!

Sandy

 

[JohnHuff]

It's just unsightly, it won't kill anything. The string algae may be growing because you are adding nutrients to the pond. Are you feeding a lot?

 

[joesandy1822]

Nope, we only feed once a week, usually on Saturday mornings (it's like a date with hubby and me). We only feed until they lose interest, which is usually about 10 minutes, and only put in 1 pellet at a time so that it ALL gets eaten. The only other nutrients would be any decaying plant matter that I miss when I'm grooming the lilies, or that the skimmer doesn't get for whatever reason.

 

[Waterbug]

Wish I had a dime for every time someone posted "I had green water that finally cleared...now I have string algae". Heck, wish I had a dime for every time I wrote this post.

Norm Meck showed clear pond water is toxic to green water algae. Kills basically on contact. Nothing to do with nutrients or sunlight. If people want to go to the expense of adding shade or denying fish food because they believe these things I say have at it. It's your pond, have fun believing as you wish.

But if you're serious the nutrient thing is just plain silly. Makes no sense at all even if you don't do any testing. Virtually every single green water algae cell starves to death...almost over night, all at the same time...while macro algae grows really well. Even common sense has to tell a rational person it's not sunlight or nutrients. Not to mention the reams and reams of data over years and years that say the same thing.

Norm's theory was the toxic chemical was produced by a bacteria.

My theory was it's an allelochemical produced by macro algae like string algae. I say "was" because as far as I'm concerned this has since been proven to my satisfaction by aquarists using refugium tanks to kill green water algae. Most of them still believe the refugium is reducing nutrients, but a few have done good testing and shown it isn't nutrients and they're starting to believe in allelochemicals. Good enough for me.

Most popular algae theories revolve around nutrients and light because it's pretty commonly known there's some connection to plants, nutrients and light. Plants producing allelochemicals is not widely known so most people seem to dismiss it as non-sense.

However plants producing allelochemicals is very well known in botany. Lewis 1996, Limnol 2011, etc. Some of the chemicals have been identified, like juglone. It's a pretty standard thing with plants. Unfortunately I don't know of any studies that focus directly on algae in freshwater ponds, so there's no absolute direct proof I can provide. However, compared to all the other theories that don't have any kind of data, allelochemicals has a butt load. Mystery has been solved to my satisfaction.

 

[adavisus]

Some plants are better at beating algae than others, which has the advantage of being quick, able to proliferate, take off in a new pond in the absence of competition or when the aquatic plants are less active (Winter)

There may be a simplish reason why green water can swing to clear water with blanketweed blooms, then blanketweed usually collapses when the ratio of aquatic plants gets to a tipping point where the uptake fertility is 'locked up' by the aquatic plants, on a well planted pond fertile water can be depleted of fertility in a couple of weeks and go from eutrpophic (fertile) to oligotrphic conditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligotrophic)

As free floating algae explodes it does so in favorable conditions of fertile water with little competition. Small free floating crustaceans and organisms (e.g. Daphnia) that can eat algae then explode and overtake the algae... Then, the tougher forms of algae e.g. filamentous, blanketweed gets the chance to explode, it takes over the niche that free floating algaes lost

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[joesandy1822]

Wish I had a dime for every time someone posted "I had green water that finally cleared...now I have string algae". Heck, wish I had a dime for every time I wrote this post.

Norm Meck showed clear pond water is toxic to green water algae. Kills basically on contact. Nothing to do with nutrients or sunlight. If people want to go to the expense of adding shade or denying fish food because they believe these things I say have at it. It's your pond, have fun believing as you wish.

But if you're serious the nutrient thing is just plain silly. Makes no sense at all even if you don't do any testing. Virtually every single green water algae cell starves to death...almost over night, all at the same time...while macro algae grows really well. Even common sense has to tell a rational person it's not sunlight or nutrients. Not to mention the reams and reams of data over years and years that say the same thing.

Norm's theory was the toxic chemical was produced by a bacteria.

My theory was it's an allelochemical produced by macro algae like string algae. I say "was" because as far as I'm concerned this has since been proven to my satisfaction by aquarists using refugium tanks to kill green water algae. Most of them still believe the refugium is reducing nutrients, but a few have done good testing and shown it isn't nutrients and they're starting to believe in allelochemicals. Good enough for me.

Most popular algae theories revolve around nutrients and light because it's pretty commonly known there's some connection to plants, nutrients and light. Plants producing allelochemicals is not widely known so most people seem to dismiss it as non-sense.

However plants producing allelochemicals is very well known in botany. Lewis 1996, Limnol 2011, etc. Some of the chemicals have been identified, like juglone. It's a pretty standard thing with plants. Unfortunately I don't know of any studies that focus directly on algae in freshwater ponds, so there's no absolute direct proof I can provide. However, compared to all the other theories that don't have any kind of data, allelochemicals has a butt load. Mystery has been solved to my satisfaction.

Waterbug, I had just read a post of yours regarding going from pea soup to string algae, and how often that happens. So I knew you had a theory of why. I was actually going to pm you to pick your brain. So I'm really glad you posted here, but for the life of me I don't understand what you're saying. I'm sorry, but I guess you're talking above my head.

Are you saying that string algae has some component (allelochemical) that kills the suspended (pea soup) algae? Because I did not notice much, if any, string algae during or after the pea soup stage. I will do some more reading about allelochemicals and see if I can get a clearer understanding. Thanks. I always love getting more understanding.