Ammonia reading / picture

[crsublette]

First, I shouldn't be using the term "crash", bad habit. It's cool sounding. Better to use "swing", but unfortunately it sounds more fun than dangerous.

I don't think pH swings would effect larger fish first. It's really hard to say because we're talking about something that normally doesn't have any visible symptoms...just a blanket term, stress. Bunch of internal stuff, heavier slime coat, but that's pretty hard to see unless crazy heavy. I have no idea, but if I had to guess I'd think smaller fish would be more affected faster. My assumption is smaller body the faster the surrounding water would affect their blood pH which drives the stress. Purely a guess on my part. There's so much to learn I kind of draw a line at some point. It's enough for me to understand the basics of how pH swings effect fish to get an idea of how much of a danger we're talking about. Once I learn that and decide to buffer water I concentrate on that so I don't have to learn the details of things like how water pH changes fish blood pH. Be cool to know, but there's only so much time.

From what I have read and understood, which I have a reference on it somewhere, the main reason why big gold fish or quite large koi is a rarity in casual hobbist ponds is due to their size. Bigger fish consume more out of the water. So, as pollution becomes higher, oxygen concentrations go lower, and pH swings more profound, then the bigger fish's gills and blood will receive more damage and less likely to recuperate. However, I have heard smaller fish to being more susceptible to temperature swing. These have been my impressions; so, I would definitely read this with a grain of skepticsm.

 

[crsublette]

I would think we would all drive ourselves crazy if we needed the details on EVERYTHING, but unfortunately for me, on some topics, I need to understand the why, so some of the more obvious things make sense. I couldnt wrap my head around the KH/PH relationship until another group member gave me the BASIC chemistry lesson I needed to fill gaps. Now I also understand why my husband is not a fan of baking soda. YES, in a pinch it does the job, but he prefers other methods to keep the KH stable. 1) He agreed to let me play with our pond this year with baking soda, but I am learning that the baking soda only lasts a few weeks before needing to add more. Great for learning, but not for the long term.

1) He agreed to let me play with our pond this year with baking soda, but I am learning that the baking soda only lasts a few weeks before needing to add more.


I encourage ya to use both products, that is baking soda and calcium carbonate.

To be more precise, the baking soda was actually being consumed, which is a very good thing, rather than the baking soda "just going away" due to it being baking soda.

As a quick side note, folk with quite hard water will typically have a much easier time managing their KH or will not have to manage their KH at all.

The main difference between baking soda and calcium carbonate products, such as oyster shells and others, is solubility.

Baking soda is almost instantly soluble so it can be used by bacteria and to act as buffer.

Calcium carbonate products are not instantly soluble. So, these products slowly release the compound over a period of time and is dependent to pH and KH. As pH and KH goes up, calcium carbonate is less soluble. As pH and KH goes down, calcium carbonate is more soluble due to more acid present in the water. These products are only good at maintaining, depending on the volume used and how the product is installed. In emergency scenarios, such as during a rain or sudden boost in biological filtration, then these products do not do well and you will find your KH slowly going down and, if "things" start to normalize, then the KH will maybe slowly go up. Once your KH reaches up to around 8~9, then calcium carbonate dissolves extremely little to almost nothing.

Due to the baking soda being consumed and no residual in the water to be a slow release, I know folks who have to constantly replenish their KH with baking soda once every two weeks or once a month, dependent on many variables, to keep their KH at 12 degrees (or drops).

Then, I read of folk who have put a significant volume of calcium carbonate (i.e., crushed oyster shells, lithaqua, etc) in their upflow filters (i.e., bogs, S&Gs) or stream bottom or trickle towers and then their reliance on baking soda is not as much as it were before when not using a calcium carbonate product.


Keep in mind that, if algae starts growing on the calcium carbonate product or there is muck accumulation, then this will reduce water contact and thus reduce the product's effectiveness.


So, I would use both unless you are simply wanting to raise the KH to 18 and then just replenish it, when it drops to 9, after one or two months. By the way, the pH of 18KH and 9KH is the same, that is around 8.3~8.5 or higher dependent on calcium presence.

 

[crsublette]

Thank you Charles and WB ... I need to research this more, but you both may have just solved a mystery for me. Back in the spring, I placed two young koi (8-9"), and then a month or so later, placed two larger koi into the same home, The larger koi (16-22") were in trouble about a week later. There were a lot of issues here, and hubby wanted nothing to do with it, but I didnt want to see my koi die, so tried ... He was testing with strips, so I went over and tested his pond. PH was a little low, but KH was basically nonexistent. Yes, those are issues, but have seen the same test results without distressed fish. Told him to add baking soda to bring the KH up. Everything else looked okay. Other tests were all good, crystal clear water, no visible muck on the bottom (pond was super shallow), heathy looking plants, etc. The one variable that I had NO knowledge of was his ionizer. Told him I knew nothing about them, and he had said that it was set really low, I want to say he said it was set at 3, which again, means nothing to me ... I asked my pond supplier about the situation (I sent this person up to him to pick up a dechlorinator, so called ahead to give him the headsup of a problem), and he was thinking/guessing/grasping maybe gasses escaping the gravel bed (the whole pond had a 3/8" gravel bed covering the liner) ,,, I dont recall telling him about the ionizer... Now I am wondering if that could have been the issue. With the actions of the pond owner, it's hard to nail it down completely, but now I wonder....

Sorry Capewind, I don't know what to figure after reading your others posts involving this situation.

I am getting the impression he might not be telling you everything, such as "did that fish accidentally fall out of the net as it was traveling to the pond?".

 

[capewind]

Sorry Capewind, I don't know what to figure after reading your others posts involving this situation.

I am getting the impression he might not be telling you everything, such as "did that fish accidentally fall out of the net as it was traveling to the pond?".

As you may recall from both conversations, hubby wanted nothing to do with the guy (was too busy he said LOL). He was a bit wacky. On the one hand he could talk well above my knowledge level, but then in the next breath could insist on something I know to be absolutely wrong ... I dont remember exactly what he said was wrong with him, I seriously think he said a brain tumor effected his memory. I think at one point in time, he was extremely knowledgable in general, but something went wrong ... He called me a final time after he lost the 22" fish, and I told him I wanted to give him some money back for the one fish that he never took possession of (we hadnt been able to catch it) and he didnt want anything back, and understood why I didnt want to place the other fish with him ... I know Waterbug is very correct in saying it could have been any number of things, but for my own learning, I would like to be able to learn to identify problems. I dont know what else I should have been looking for to either rule it out, or to put it on the maybe list. Other than the fish being a bit spooky, I didnt see anything visibly wrong with the fish. I dont have a ton of experience with spooky fish. The only times I have seen this behavior first hand is either still adjusting to their new home, or with an ammonia spike ... If he did a 50% water change the night before as he said, if ammonia had been the issue, my testing would have shown something still there ... The only other thing that comes to mind about his pond was how CLEAN it was .. It really was very pretty, but even the gravel was spotlessly clean to the eye. Maybe too clean? Not latching on to this, but do understand clarity doesnt mean healthy.

 

[capewind]

I encourage ya to use both products, that is baking soda and calcium carbonate.

I agree with you. It has been interesting to watch the pattens with the baking soda, but I am still seeing it as a quick fix. Our tap water tests as 0 KH ... I know after heavy rains, the PH and KH dip slightly for a couple of days, but then comes back to where it was.

I understand the acid component with the use of crushed coral, but where I am still confused here is the amount different people say is needed. I am not seeing massive quanities as some say. When hubby does the fall clean up in the pond, the coral is going back in, and am planning to watch the patterns with rain and the occasional water change, and use baking soda for the replacement water ... or at least that's what I am thinking based on my current understanding.

 

[crsublette]

I agree with you. It has been interesting to watch the pattens with the baking soda, but I am still seeing it as a quick fix. Our tap water tests as 0 KH ... I know after heavy rains, the PH and KH dip slightly for a couple of days, but then comes back to where it was.

1) I understand the acid component with the use of crushed coral, but where I am still confused here is the amount different people say is needed. I am not seeing massive quanities as some say. When hubby does the fall clean up in the pond, the coral is going back in, and am planning to watch the patterns with rain and the occasional water change, and use baking soda for the replacement water ... or at least that's what I am thinking based on my current understanding.

1) I understand the acid component with the use of crushed coral, but where I am still confused here is the amount different people say is needed. I am not seeing massive quanities as some say.

Yep, quantity varies. In your situation, since your tap water has a 0dKH and you get heavy rains, then you might not need to use as much as folk that have 4dKH with heavy rains.

I see the stuff used all the time in quite large aquarium systems, especially at a local fish store. Although, the product volume ratio of product to water is still quite high, but the product still has a noticeable impact.

So, in your situation, you might not need to use much coral, but, as the KH rises, the less of the coral will be used and will not be used until it is needed.


The big deal with baking soda is that folk can raise their KH above 8~9dKH, which can not be achieved with a calcium carbonate product (like coral or oyster shells) unless there is a quite huge amount of the product used.

 

[capewind]

I dont want to quote ratios without stating the obvious could VARY BY LOCATION ... I asked hubby just how much crushed coral is needed HERE ... he says it depends on who is taking care of the pond ... If HE is taking care of the pond, he goes with 10 lbs per 1000 gallons of water and adds more later in the season if needed, and if the home owner is taking care of some things, he may go as high as 20 lbs per 1000 gallons with the "it depends" comment LOL ...

But anyways, we have totally gotten off topic from the OPs ammonia and ionizer topics ...

 

[crsublette]

As you may recall from both conversations, hubby wanted nothing to do with the guy (was too busy he said LOL). He was a bit wacky. On the one hand he could talk well above my knowledge level, but then in the next breath could insist on something I know to be absolutely wrong ... I dont remember exactly what he said was wrong with him, I seriously think he said a brain tumor effected his memory. I think at one point in time, he was extremely knowledgable in general, but something went wrong ... He called me a final time after he lost the 22" fish, and I told him I wanted to give him some money back for the one fish that he never took possession of (we hadnt been able to catch it) and he didnt want anything back, and understood why I didnt want to place the other fish with him ... I know Waterbug is very correct in saying it could have been any number of things, but for my own learning, I would like to be able to learn to identify problems. I dont know what else I should have been looking for to either rule it out, or to put it on the maybe list. Other than the fish being a bit spooky, I didnt see anything visibly wrong with the fish. I dont have a ton of experience with spooky fish. The only times I have seen this behavior first hand is either still adjusting to their new home, or with an ammonia spike ... If he did a 50% water change the night before as he said, if ammonia had been the issue, my testing would have shown something still there ...1) The only other thing that comes to mind about his pond was how CLEAN it was .. It really was very pretty, but even the gravel was spotlessly clean to the eye. Maybe too clean? Not latching on to this, but do understand clarity doesnt mean healthy.

1) The only other thing that comes to mind about his pond was how CLEAN it was .. It really was very pretty, but even the gravel was spotlessly clean to the eye. Maybe too clean? Not latching on to this, but do understand clarity doesnt mean healthy.

Yeah, it is not hard to accomplish, but it takes effort, which I am not seeing the proper effort was made by him due to your involvement and sharing of the discussion.

So... How did he keep it so clean? Was he pouring bleach or chlorine or over doing it with some other product ?? When you mentioned he did a 50% water change with city chlorinated water and did not use a dechlorinator, then this makes me wonder if he did add something else to the pond.


Just a quick heads up, folks, I am not giving the "owner" a hard time. Just talking about the issues at hand. Although, he making mention of having memory problems makes me quite sad for him and this would give indications on what might or might not be done to to properly maintain a pond.

 

[crsublette]

I dont want to quote ratios without stating the obvious could VARY BY LOCATION ... I asked hubby just how much crushed coral is needed HERE ... he says it depends on who is taking care of the pond ... If HE is taking care of the pond, he goes with 10 lbs per 1000 gallons of water and adds more later in the season if needed, and if the home owner is taking care of some things, he may go as high as 20 lbs per 1000 gallons with the "it depends" comment LOL ...

But anyways, we have totally gotten off topic from the OPs ammonia and ionizer topics ...

Yep, good advice!!


:cheerful: This is just one of those interesting side discussions that can happen within someone else's thread.

Tula, do not be discouraged.

We are just chating until you share more updates. :claphands:

 

[capewind]

Yeah, it is not hard to accomplish, but it takes effort, which I am not seeing the proper effort was made by him due to your involvement and sharing of the discussion.

I think the perfect words here may be "proper effort" ... The pond isnt ignored, he took a lot of pride in showing it to me. The context of him admitting his memory problems was in relationship to him remembering people. That sometimes he would forget that he knows someone, and to please dont take offense, and if he acted like he didnt know me at some point, just say 'hey x (his name), I know you from x' ... Of course if he can forget people he knows, it isnt hard to understand other things could be forgotten too. He really was a nice person, but it can be challenging for some people to sort through what is real or confused info.

So... How did he keep it so clean? Was he pouring bleach or chlorine or over doing it with some other product ?? When you mentioned he did a 50% water change with city chlorinated water and did not use a dechlorinator, then this makes me wonder if he did add something else to the pond.

You can never guess what someone could possibly do, but from general conversations, I would tag him more as a naturalist. He said he cleaned the gravel regularly by blasting it with the hose, which brings us back to the chlorine issue ... He had tons of plant life, mostly in the form of .. I think they are called floating hearts ... mini lily pad like greens with small yellow flowers and with such shallow water and no movement to be seen, I wondered about the oxygen level, but disregarded that, as I would think the fish would be gasping at the surface ... the visible liner was also void of ANY algae.

 

[crsublette]

Yep, I can admit myself to being victim to that same memory issue.


With water that shallow, oxygen should not be a problem, but you could always tell him to put a simple little small 100gph fountain or a small aquarium air stone kit.

The tremendous influx of chlorinated water might have been the problem. However, typically, folk's fish die from this rather than getting sick, but the chlorine concentration might not be high.


I don't know... Going to approach this glass half empty by saying I am still have the impression he might be adding something to the water that he's not mentioning or believes it is not worth mentioning or does not want to mention.

I'm tapped out. Unless its bacterial or parasitic (which can only be seen with a microscope) or a pathogen, then I don't know.

 

[capewind]

I'm tapped out. Unless its bacterial or parasitic (which can only be seen with a microscope) or a pathogen, then I don't know.

I gave up on a definate answer, and then wondered about it when the ionizer came up here. I am wondering just how he does keep his pond SO clean. Our conversations ended on friendly terms with him saying to keep in touch, so thinking now that the work load is slowing down, to maybe pop by his house next time I am over that way.

 

[Tula]

Yep, good advice!!


:cheerful: This is just one of those interesting side discussions that can happen within someone else's thread.

Tula, do not be discouraged.

We are just chating until you share more updates. :claphands:

Oh.....I am not discouraged I'm excited, and a bit nervous, for my pond work on Wed. Thinking of taking the day off work......that way I can take pictures My husband works from home. Kim

 

[Waterbug]

I would think we would all drive ourselves crazy if we needed the details on EVERYTHING, but unfortunately for me, on some topics, I need to understand the why, so some of the more obvious things make sense. I couldnt wrap my head around the KH/PH relationship until another group member gave me the BASIC chemistry lesson I needed to fill gaps. Now I also understand why my husband is not a fan of baking soda. YES, in a pinch it does the job, but he prefers other methods to keep the KH stable. He agreed to let me play with our pond this year with baking soda, but I am learning that the baking soda only lasts a few weeks before needing to add more. Great for learning, but not for the long term.

What is the issue with baking soda?

Not sure I understand what you mean, but baking soda lasts indefinitely unless it reacts with something. I mean it doesn't just break down in some time period.

 

[Waterbug]

From what I have read and understood, which I have a reference on it somewhere, the main reason why big gold fish or quite large koi is a rarity in casual hobbist ponds is due to their size. Bigger fish consume more out of the water. So, as pollution becomes higher, oxygen concentrations go lower, and pH swings more profound, then the bigger fish's gills and blood will receive more damage and less likely to recuperate. However, I have heard smaller fish to being more susceptible to temperature swing. These have been my impressions; so, I would definitely read this with a grain of skepticsm.

Size matters for O2 consumption. Bigger fish have to take in more O2 per "breath" so they need higher concentrations. They have bigger gills so the difference isn't that great, but they start falling behind faster than smaller fish when the O2 concentration falls.

In pH swings O2 concentration in the water doesn't change, so I don't think the same big vs small rule applies, at least in the same way. Because it is the fish's blood with the problem using the O2 I assume a small fish's blood would have the same problem as a big fish. What I don't know is whether size matters in how fast blood starts having the problem and/or whether size matters in how fast the fish would be effected.