Bricks as pond edging (in pond)

[BlueOrca]

I am just about to do the edging around my pond (2 levels of cement/quartz bricks) to hide the liner, capped off with patio stones (formal type, rectangular 16x7). I came across a post that concerned me about the bricks freezing and crumbling, I am in the most southern part of Canada, but we still get winter freeze thaw cycles. Is this a real concern? Should I put the bricks on the hidden side of the liner (liner straight up to cap stones)?



Above is how I planned it, and would have finished it, had it not rained for the past week.

The pond is dug, liner in, water level is just before where I need to install bricks. So my main question is Bricks in the pond or behind liner. I need the 2 levels of bricks to bring water level above grade.

Anyone have cement bricks disintegrate?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Waterbug]

If you look around your community I think you will see cement used in various ways everywhere. Foundations, sidewalk, buildings, everywhere. Cement has been used in freezing climates for hundreds of years. The entirety of the fears of freezing and concrete are based on people repeating stuff they've heard with none knowing not a single thing about anything. The internet has given crap info a soap box like crap info has never had in the history of the world. A person only needs to be able to work a keyboard...and even then, not very well.

However, proper building techniques are needed to greatly extent the useful lifespan of any concrete project, no matter the climate or in water or not. But again, you have to wade thru the info crap maze that is the internet.

Couple of good sources of info...

There are several contractor type forums where you can post questions. I've always found them very helpful. You have to wade thru crap info there too, but you're more likely to get at least one or two experienced masons offer help. But it has to be up to you tell the good from the bad. This apparently is very difficult because from what I've seen over the years, no matter the forum, an inexperenced person will choose the most wrong, most complex, most expensive option available about 95% of the time. I think the percentage is actually higher, but I didn't want to appear cynical.

Another good source is Google Books. They have scanned a bunch of old books which contain a lot of info on cement use. I find them to be more helpful for basic understanding of cement. For example adding alum and potash soap to mortar for use in wet conditions.

For your project more detail is needed, but from the picture shown mortared brick would not work very well, in any climate. Mortar doesn't bond to liner so that top course has no foundation. There are many ways it could be done. More info on what structure you have now would help narrow the choices.

 

[falconut]

I'm curious to see the answer too. I just got back from HD and they don't have any real rocks, just precasted concrete pavers.

 

[capewind]

Hmmm... interesting to find my sketch in another thread ... the "R" in the blocks represent rocks, I have no clue how it would work with bricks...

 

[HTH]

I used cast concreate bricks and pavers on this pond. The edge is done like this as I mentioned in another thread.
Some of the partially submerged concrete bricks crumbled due to freeze thaw cycles. DPerry made a video on making waterproof edging that does not absorb water.

If on were to lower the water level in the fall and let the bricks dry out they might be ok. But then you get to look at the liner all winter.

I kept this picture because the water lilies had green leaves up and it snowed.

 

[BlueOrca]

Hmmm... interesting to find my sketch in another thread ... the "R" in the blocks represent rocks, I have no clue how it would work with bricks...

I guess I should have credited your artistry (and changed the "R's" to "B's" for bricks).

I used cast concreate bricks and pavers on this pond. The edge is done like this as I mentioned in another thread.
Some of the partially submerged concrete bricks crumbled due to freeze thaw cycles. DPerry made a video on making waterproof edging that does not absorb water.

If on were to lower the water level in the fall and let the bricks dry out they might be ok. But then you get to look at the liner all winter.

I kept this picture because the water lilies had green leaves up and it snowed.

I tried the search feature after reading your post in the other thread about Dperry, with no luck, so I started this thread so as to not "threadjack" falconnut's post.


As for more information, I am doing the basic layout of HTH's diagram, except for 2 rows of bricks instead of 1, using landscaping adhesive to hold them together. Having them move a little and resettle wouldn't be a problem, but frost heaving chunks of brick into the bottom of the pond would not be good for the liner or the pavers on top of the bricks. Lowering the water in the fall for winter temps is an idea though. Thanks for the input.

 

[gardengimp]

The only thing I can tell you about freezing is if I was exposed to it I would freeze and crumble. So, I'm down here in warm, sunny central Florida. My pond temp this morning was 72.

My property is all very fine 'sugar' sand. When I did my edging as illustrated, the problem I had was the sides caving in and the rocks/bricks moving around.. Maybe a combination of sugar sand, heavy rains, and heavy foot traffic along the edge of the pond. Whatever, it wasn't pleasant. So, I've got a course of concrete block under the foldover of the liner. The bricks/rocks at waters edge set on top of this row of concrete block.

Oh, and do a google search on dperry pond. Here for youtube channel, and here for a pond build thread.

 

[HTH]

I should add my ground would not hold an edge sharp enough to work with the pavers. I build a 2 level wood platform from salvaged redwood fence boards to hold the pavers, A little variation really makes the pavers look bad and I have doubts that there are may soils out there where it will work without some form of stabilization or support.

 

[capewind]

I guess I should have credited your artistry (and changed the "R's" to "B's" for bricks).

I am not concerned with my POOR artistry LOL, it just would have been more appropriate to borrow my drawing on the thread it was posted, and stated there that this is what you were doing with brick.

 

[BlueOrca]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I am still digesting what to do....here is what I am dealing with (90% clay, which can be sculpted)





There was rain and a couple minutes of snow today....41 degrees presently, so I will have to wait until tomorrow to make a decision.


edit to fix pictures....

 

[HTH]

Give it a try and see what works. Maybe gluing the bricks to the pavers will do the trick.

After building a few too many ponds to close to the fence I am starting to move them a bit further away to give more working room on the fence side both working in the pond and on whatever is between the pond and the fence. What you have will work just my observation. I know sometimes there is no good choice on this.

I am guessing this is what you mean by 2 bricks. Turning the ones nearest the pond the long way will help to keep them from falling in. You really have to get the pond level to make this work. If you turn the bricks on edge you will have a bit more wiggle room.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

[Waterbug]

I should add my ground would not hold an edge sharp enough to work with the pavers. I build a 2 level wood platform from salvaged redwood fence boards to hold the pavers, A little variation really makes the pavers look bad and I have doubts that there are may soils out there where it will work without some form of stabilization or support.

This type of design is not going to have a long expected life in any climate. If people want to believe the issue is freezing then super...whatever it takes to not build this way.

One word...foundation.

Proper method for this case is epoxy.

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I am still digesting what to do....here is what I am dealing with (90% clay, which can be sculpted)

Vertical dirt walls results in unstable walls. The more weight you place on the top edge the more unstable the dirt below becomes.

The key to any good edge treatment is a plan before the liner is placed.

There's nothing wrong with this unless you're expecting it to remain stable for 3,4,5,6 years. Lay some large thin flag on top and call it a day. I would not invest in epoxy, mortar or anything that couldn't be reused later.

Doesn't look too deep. I grew up and first learned construction on Lake Ontario in NY. One winter digging a footer the ground was frozen solid 3.5' down. It was a very cold period, but still.

 

[HTH]

Maybe Arizona does not stay below freezing long enough for the concrete to freeze. Its not enough to have ice on the surface the brick has to freeze inside.

Water expands when it freezes by about 10% in volume . It busts up a saturated concrete brick because the brick can't expand. Many of the saturated bricks on the north wall of the pond I pictured above were busted up from freezing. Not a myth.

The design would not be my first choice but it seems Blue Orca wants to give it a try. Sometimes people just have to learn from their mistakes. I posted the image to give him his best chance at making it work.

This type of design is not going to have a long expected life in any climate. If people want to believe the issue is freezing then super...whatever it takes to not build this way.

One word...foundation.

Proper method for this case is epoxy.

 

[Event Horizon]

I am in Toronto and I have concerns here.

Frost is powerful, and when a Canadian frost can get several feet deep it is not to be under estimated, that is why fence posts are dug to a minimum of 4 feet depth, otherwise they will heave.

When you go up from here with 2 courses of pavers and then patio slabs what are you going to backfill with? How deep did you go with the pond? I also don’t necessarily agree with lowering the water level to keep bricks dry. It may stop them from crumbling but you will have nothing to stop the ground from pushing into the pond if it is extra wet and cold one winter.

I was told the minimum diameter stone to use for the planter out front was 9”x9” if I didn’t want it to heave (and it hasn’t) I used the same block by the edge of the pond that connects to the patio with several inches of screenings (it hasn’t moved either). Builders would have told me to use 10”of ¾ limestone crush with 4”to 6” of screenings.

If you want a clean line and never want to touch it again you will need to go with a larger stone. You are in Ontario we have lots of rock; I believe the stuff I used is called ledge rock, check out your local rock supply company.
If you don’t want to go that route Waterbug’s suggestion of “beam block” on this thread is very interesting, I like it. It would still shift in Canadian winters, but most of it is underground so it would not be visible, nor would it move as much as it is backfilled. The bricks you are suggesting will heave and be noticeable, and you will be tearing up the patio stones within a couple of years.

I guess it comes down to the look you want. We wanted a natural look. I knew I wanted plants growing over the edge and into the water. My biggest regret is all the stone. All the rock you see on the fence side of the pond in the water is now removed. There is some under the ground cover holding the liner but that is it. The liner comes up, over, and down. If it rains the water will shed away from the pond, and the ground cover grows over and into the water.