Can you help me understand bottom drains?

shanezam203

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I am planning my 2nd pond and researching bottom drains, can anyone help me understand drains? I am building a 16x16 foot pond L shaped pond with 8 foot Legs.

Drains are to be installed at the Lowest point in the pond right, I should slope all other areas to direct debris and water towards the drain right? Are 2 inch drains common?

Does a bottom drain Need a Pump? If so it is the drain, to a 2" flexible PVC pipe that connects to a pump inlet and the outlet goes to filtration and back in the waterfall?

Thank you,

Shane
 

ididntdoit99

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Im no expert, I'm sure somebody will chime in to correct me, but you will need some sort of filter or settlement chamber between the drain and the inlet of the pump, so you are not clogging the pump with everything you suck into the bottom drain.
 

sissy

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yep good way to suck up baby fish and snails and taddies ,not sure i would ever want one
 

shanezam203

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Im no expert, I'm sure somebody will chime in to correct me, but you will need some sort of filter or settlement chamber between the drain and the inlet of the pump, so you are not clogging the pump with everything you suck into the bottom drain.
Does that filter or cage sit in the pond over the drain or more so before the pump?

Don't some drains have traps to prevent larger things going into drain/ pvc?

566181-400.jpg
 

sissy

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larger yes but taddies and baby fish can be small .My pump even sucked one into my filter last year and it ended up on top of the filter media and out of the water and died
 

shanezam203

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So do some of you not suggest bottom drains? I am just trying to learn more about them.

Without one if I wanted to drain the pond, I would need to use a Pump and sump the water out right?

With one, if there is ever a leak, having the drain at the lowest point could clear out the pond & fish would be out of water. Compared to putting pump/ drain at a higher level to be safe...
 
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Like everything, there are dozens of ways to do stuff. It comes down to your personal choice and the results you want. What I'll discuss is mainly current best practices imo.

I am planning my 2nd pond and researching bottom drains, can anyone help me understand drains? I am building a 16x16 foot pond L shaped pond with 8 foot Legs.

Right off, for that configuration you should consider a "river flow" or "stream flow" type drain. Google "river flow pond bottom drain" for more info. Not a lot of info, but it isn't the complex. Basically in a round or square pond a single drain is placed in the center and water current is created in a circular motion to flush debris to the drain. In a rectangular pond 2 drains are used, 2 opposite direction currents are set up to flush debris to each drain. Basically divides the rectangular pond into 2 square sections. I'm not sure of your exact pond shape, each leg is 8' long but how wide is each leg? Posting a rough picture is best.

Drains are to be installed at the Lowest point in the pond right, I should slope all other areas to direct debris and water towards the drain right?

Nope. This is probably the biggest misconception. If the purpose of the drain was to remove marbles the sloped sides would be perfect. But it isn't. The stuff you want removed almost floats in water. It can settle on a 45 degree side and stick there just fine. Over time enough build up might avalanche down. Exactly the same deal as dust in your house.

So myth #1 is sloped sides. "Well they help a little"...no, they don't.

Are 2 inch drains common?

Probably the most common drain sold is 2" because it's sold into the mass market. Many of these are never installed, they're just impulse buys. Seemed like a good idea in the store. Those that are installed I'd say manyl are turned off shortly there after due to clogging and the pond bottom being no cleaner than before.

The most common working drains are 3 or 4". The mass market brands wouldn't sell as the bulk would scare most customers away.

Does a bottom drain Need a Pump?
There has to be a pump some place. Whether the pump is connected directly to the drain or not is a personal choice that should be based on your personal goals.

If so it is the drain, to a 2" flexible PVC pipe that connects to a pump inlet and the outlet goes to filtration and back in the waterfall?

Yes when connected directly to the drain. This would normally be an external pump with a strainer pot as part of the pump. The strainer keeps how large stuff that might damage the pump. You might have to clean out the pot often, even once a day, depending on time of year, stuff you have around your pond, string algae, etc. As the strainer clogs water flow is reduced. So the net is you'd spend more $$$ to pump less water than if the pump is not connected directly to the drain. Most of these pumps have auto shutoff because if the strainer clogs too much the pump burns out.

Finer stuff, or stuff that breaks down fast like fish poo go on thru the strainer basket and is ground up into a poo frappuccino most of which goes right on thru any filter. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a bottom drain imo.

You may have to be careful on the pump elevation. Pump mounted below the pond water level will flood out the strainer when you open the cap.

Best practice...
The other pump placement is where it isn't connected directly to the drain. Here's a crude picture of this basic configuration.
sieveOn.jpg


This is called a gravity fed system. A reservoir, or small pond, or bog holds the pump which can be a submerged pump or external, doesn't matter. As water is pumped into the pond the pond overflows thru the bottom drain. The drain pipe opening is positioned at or just below the desired pond water level.

Instead of the strainer pot a simple pre filter screen is placed under the drain pipe opening. Very easy DIY, just a screen. This would be called a sieve filter. Couple of benefits...way less cleaning and easier to clean than a strainer. Gets debris out of the water column right away as the debris is washed to the edges, so the stuff isn't rotting in you pond so you get better water quality. If clogged the screen will over flow so the pump won't be starved for water and burn out as fast. But it's easy to DIY screens that hold 100 times as much debris as a strainer pot.

In the picture the pump sends water back into the pond, but that outflow could be sent to filters, falls, stream, whatever.

The picture above is a DIY version of something like a Cetus Sieve filter. You can check those out to see if you'd prefer buying one.

There are many other choices...that was just my fav.

Tangential Pond Returns
We've covered 2 parts to a bottom drain system. A hole in the bottom pond connected to a pipe and a pump. If either one of these is missing you got nothin'. There is a third piece that is just as important as the other two. It is almost always forgotten in water gardens. It's the primary reason those mass market 2" drains are turned off.

There has to be a way to move debris to the drain. I already covered why sloped sides don't work...never have...never will.

Stuff is moved to the drain by water current. Think leaf blower. It takes very little current. For example, if you placed a regular garden hose into a pond so it was parallel to the pond side, even just below the surface and turned it on you would see the entire volume of the pond turning in just a couple of minutes. And on the bottom you would see debris moving to the center and spinning around like a tornado. That's a Tangential Pond Return or TPR. Super simple, super necessary for a good performing system.

A standard practice is to have the pump as shown above and have another pump for the skimmer. The drain pump output would be sent to filters and falls. The skimmer pump would go to the TPRs because the skimmer pump can generally be smaller and that all a skimmer and TPs need. TPRs are general located 18-24" above the bottom. The direction they point and number needed depend on the shape of the pond. There are some detailed diagrams on the web on different configurations.

Sloped Sides
Although sloped sides aren't needed there is one kind of sloped feature that is good. For a circular motion BD on a flat bottom you dig a 4-6" deeper area with the drain in the center. The deeper area is also flat and about 1-2' out from the drain. As the water current sweeps around the pond that little 4-6" drop will be a water break of no current and so debris will fall into that lower area and into the drain.
 
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So do some of you not suggest bottom drains? I am just trying to learn more about them.
It depends on the pond. In a Wildlife pond a build up of waste on the bottom is a good thing so a BD would not be desired. In a high end Koi pond a BD would be a requirement as they need good water quality and have a hard enough time keeping it even with a BD. Water gardens are in between. The higher the fish load the more beneficial a BD. The less maintenance an owner wants the more beneficial the BD.

Without one if I wanted to drain the pond, I would need to use a Pump and sump the water out right?
If you only want a bottom drain to empty a pond a Trash Pump is way easier.

With one, if there is ever a leak, having the drain at the lowest point could clear out the pond & fish would be out of water. Compared to putting pump/ drain at a higher level to be safe...
Correct. I personally have never heard of a bottom drain leaking, but it is possible. However they can be installed above the liner if you like. You dig a slightly wider trench for the drain and pipe, lay the liner and then lay the pipe and drain on top of the liner and mortar over the pipe and around the drain to make a smooth bottom.

There would be little reason to put a drain higher than the bottom. Keeping a pump off the bottom is a very good practice. Most leaks are going to be some place the pump is pumping to. So a pump on the bottom will drain a pond in about an hour.
 

shanezam203

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Right off, for that configuration you should consider a "river flow" or "stream flow" type drain. Google "river flow pond bottom drain" for more info. Not a lot of info, but it isn't the complex. Basically in a round or square pond a single drain is placed in the center and water current is created in a circular motion to flush debris to the drain. In a rectangular pond 2 drains are used, 2 opposite direction currents are set up to flush debris to each drain. Basically divides the rectangular pond into 2 square sections. I'm not sure of your exact pond shape, each leg is 8' long but how wide is each leg? Posting a rough picture is best.

Attached are two sketches, but its 16x16 and then every other wall is 8 feet.
So 16x16x8x8x8x8 dug 4 feet deep, blocks are sitting about a foot back creating a shelf.


Pond1-vi.jpg
 

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Yes, I'd look at a river flow BD concept. Single BD at the end of one leg. TPRs at the other end all flowing toward the BD. These systems require a lot more flow than circular system.

Or another choice is a BD at the end of each leg and TPRs by the waterfall pointing at each drain. Kind of like 2 separate river flow systems.

In either case you can get a lot more sweeping flow by building a catch basin under the falls. You still get the sound and the splash, but the basin can direct flow along the bottom rather than staying near the surface. Easy to build Here's what they look like:
CatchBasin.jpg

koibasin.jpg


The catch basin also catches any foam produced so you'll never see soap foam floating on the pond surface. And you can scoop the foam out if you like to reduce DOCs (tiny crap in the water). It also keeps the pond surface still so fish viewing is greatly improved. Also drives O2 rich water to the pond bottom and moves low O2 water from the bottom to the surface where it picks up O2 and releases CO2. A lot of wins for very little work imo.

Can be placed under streams too.

I would expect a lot of dead spots in your picture. L shapes are not the best for BDs but it can be done.
 
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The idea of the bottom drain is that it uses gravity feed to draw water and mulm (the proper term for pond dust) to the filter system. The big advantage of that, as Waterbug mentioned, is that the mulm stays intact and is easier to filter out than if you were to run it through a pump where it would get blended up into fine particles. The filter system you have after the bottom drain should be designed to work with the bottom drain.
There is no advantage to haveing a bottom drain hooked up to directly to a pump because that defeats the purpose of the gravity feed system.
Bottom drains are not usually designed for draining your pond, in fact in the design drawing that waterbug posted above once the water level droped below the outlet pipe feeding the seive the gravity pressure would be level and the pond would stop draining. You could however install a gate valve at that exit point and a smaller aux valve on the pond side of that that could be hooked up to a pump and you could drain the pond that way because that would no longer be a gravity feed system. I have just such a valve hooked up to my bottom drain system for that purpose.
med_gallery_3859_189_57226.jpg
 
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...in fact in the design drawing that waterbug posted above once the water level droped below the outlet pipe feeding the seive the gravity pressure would be level and the pond would stop draining.
Nope. The reservoir would have to go dry before the pond could drop even a hair. With the pump on the pond is always overflowing thru the drain pipe, so the pond is always at the same level. Never up, never down. All water loss from evaporation appears in the reservoir. And that's where the auto fill valve is placed.
 
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Nope. The reservoir would have to go dry before the pond could drop even a hair. With the pump on the pond is always overflowing thru the drain pipe, so the pond is always at the same level. Never up, never down. All water loss from evaporation appears in the reservoir. And that's where the auto fill valve is placed.
What I meant was if you were to re-route the discharge from that pump to try and drain the pond, the pond could only drain to the bottom level of that outlet pipe coming from the bottom drain and that's it. You couldn't drain the pond completely, although I'm pretty sure the water level would go down a little more than "a hair".
 

shanezam203

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Any advantages to NOT doing a drain and putting a pump on each Leg, then to filters and back in the water fall in the back corner?

So 2 pumps, one on each Leg?
 
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Any advantages to NOT doing a drain and putting a pump on each Leg, then to filters and back in the water fall in the back corner?

So 2 pumps, one on each Leg?
Only one that I can think of,,,, it's easier.

The easiest thing, and the most common practice with backyard ponds is to put in submersible pumps. Not very sophisticated, but it will pump ya wada fo ya.
 

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