Chris...new pond

[Xtopher3]

First off, I just want to say how pumped I am to join this group and get my new pond started...

Apart from being terrified of leaks or doing something horribly wrong and having to start over, I do have some questions...if i may be so bold

For reference I am near Toronto Ontario so we do get pretty cold...zone 4 or 5 depending on which map you use...

The pond is roughly 10x15, depth of 2' max...one single pump (4000gph) feeding a waterfall spillway (with a very small stream and bird bath area) and a bog...using a skimmer to house the pump...

Bog is roughly 3x6...12-15" deep...spills into pond...

Questions revolve around pond plants and the bog...

1. Considering iris, creeping Jenny, forget me nots, sweet flag and palm sedge for the bog...yea or nay? Something I should absolutely include that is not on my list?

2. In the pond plants...pickerel weed, lizards tail, lily...maybe iris...

3. I plan on running the pump all winter...i have a deicer on hand if need be...can I run water through the bog all winter and let it flow into the pond? Or shut it off entirely? It would not drain if I shut off the pump...

4. Also, is it better to plumb in gate valves for the waterfall and the bog or better to wait and see if they are necessary?

I attached photos as it seems to help ...skimmer on far left, waterfall in middle, bog on right..

Thanks in advance...appreciate your insight...

 

[j.w]

@Xtopher3
I don't have a bog so can't help ya w/that one but the other plants sound fine for your pond. There are a lot more too that you can use in your pond. Sedge's, Hornwort, Parrot's Feather and Marsh Marigold (likes it where there are cold winters). I am not in a really cold area, zone 8 so can't grow it here but I sure wish I could. @callingcolleen1 a member here lives in Medicine Hat so she may be able to give you some good advice on running your pump there etc. She doesn't have a bog either tho. Are you gonna have fish?
Here are a couple links to Colleen's pond threads: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/my-pond-runs-all-winter-zone-2-3.10570/ and https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/ponds-in-canada.9124/

@addy1 built a wonderful bog and has lots of nice plants in hers. Others here can help w/them also.
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/bog-building.6894/

 

[JamieB]

If you haven’t dropped a liner in yet, reach out to other pond keepers in your area and find out just how deep the ice gets on the worst winters. Doesn’t seem deep enough to me, but other than thinking most of Canada has temps like Minnesota, or arctic, I know nothing of your winters. Having lived in northern Minnesota, I expect winters to freeze up to 3 ft deep, so if I was putting in a nice pond with fish, I’d go 4’ deep, maybe a bit more. That part doesn’t have to be big, just one area guaranteed to not freeze my fish into ice cubes on really bad winters. Also, you’ll want a way to either remove plants from the bog, insulate it, or drain it for winter, or you’ll end up with frozen plant mush melting into weird goo come spring. You’ll want to find out what each plant needs, and plan and plant accordingly.

 

[addy1]

3. I plan on running the pump all winter...i have a deicer on hand if need be...can I run water through the bog all winter and let it flow into the pond? Or shut it off entirely? It would not drain if I shut off the pump...

Welcome to our forum!

I shut my bog down in the winter, actually shut all down (external pump) If I leave it running I find the surface area really cools down the pond water.

 

[Lisak1]

Welcome @Xtopher3 ! It's always funny to hear the first pond keepers fear - a leak! We've all been there, so we know how you feel!

The plants all sound fine - you'll quickly learn which ones work best for your pond and location. The only one I'd be careful with is the iris - they are aggressive growers and will quickly fill your bog. My bog is about 4x6, so similar in size and I have given up on irises after fighting to keep them contained for several years. I still have them in my pond, but we have a very tenuous truce!

We run our pump all winter, but much depends on the design of your waterfall. Ice can quickly divert water if it builds up in the right - aka WRONG - place.

As for plumbing - I always feel like I'd rather have the options and not need them then vice versa. I assume by "gate valves" you mean ball valves - we have several that we rarely use, but I'm glad we have them when we need them. Unless you really love the idea of re-doing things, I'd add them as you build.

@JamieB raises a good point, but I will tell you here in Chicago many, many ponds are just two feet deep and they house fish all winter long just fine. We're zone 5 here. An in-ground pond won't freeze two feet deep. And if you are able to run your pump all winter you won't have to worry about keeping a hole open in the pond for off-gassing.

@JamieB - not sure what you mean by removing plants from the bog. They'll be fine even if they freeze solid. And his bog is at ground level it appears, so it's plenty insulated. There's no need to drain it if he chooses to shut it down for the winter.

Going back to look at your pictures!

 

[addy1]

I never remove any plants they either survive our winters or are gone! My bog stays wet, with the pump off, the plants freeze and come back in the spring.

 

[Lisak1]

If @addy1 or I had to worry about removing bog plants in the winter, I think we'd both give up the ponding game. We share the same "live or die - your choice" mentality when it comes to our plants!

 

[Xtopher3]

Welcome @Xtopher3 ! It's always funny to hear the first pond keepers fear - a leak! We've all been there, so we know how you feel!

The plants all sound fine - you'll quickly learn which ones work best for your pond and location. The only one I'd be careful with is the iris - they are aggressive growers and will quickly fill your bog. My bog is about 4x6, so similar in size and I have given up on irises after fighting to keep them contained for several years. I still have them in my pond, but we have a very tenuous truce!

We run our pump all winter, but much depends on the design of your waterfall. Ice can quickly divert water if it builds up in the right - aka WRONG - place.

As for plumbing - I always feel like I'd rather have the options and not need them then vice versa. I assume by "gate valves" you mean ball valves - we have several that we rarely use, but I'm glad we have them when we need them. Unless you really love the idea of re-doing things, I'd add them as you build.

@JamieB raises a good point, but I will tell you here in Chicago many, many ponds are just two feet deep and they house fish all winter long just fine. We're zone 5 here. An in-ground pond won't freeze two feet deep. And if you are able to run your pump all winter you won't have to worry about keeping a hole open in the pond for off-gassing.

@JamieB - not sure what you mean by removing plants from the bog. They'll be fine even if they freeze solid. And his bog is at ground level it appears, so it's plenty insulated. There's no need to drain it if he chooses to shut it down for the winter.

Going back to look at your pictures!

So @Lisak1 do you leave the water running into your bog in the winter?

I have a deicer if need be...was planning on running it in front of the skimmer and hope that helps...naive?

I put the ball valves in on both lines so I could run water just to the bog or to the waterfall in the winter...

I guess there's a wait and see element to this also?

 

[Xtopher3]

I never remove any plants they either survive our winters or are gone! My bog stays wet, with the pump off, the plants freeze and come back in the spring.

May I ask why your don't run water to your bog in the winter @addy1 ?

 

[Xtopher3]

How long do you think I should wait until I put fish in? I hear many different opinions on this...

Just goldfish and maybe some sunfish/minnows from the creek to start...ultimately I would like to add a bass or 2...something like that anyways...got excited about a pond from Bamabass YouTube channel...

 

[Xtopher3]

Side note...thanks to all of you for responding...ive been researching this forum for a while now and finally decided to join...so your names are all familiar to me and I was hoping you would chime in. Thanks so much

 

[Xtopher3]

If you haven’t dropped a liner in yet, reach out to other pond keepers in your area and find out just how deep the ice gets on the worst winters. Doesn’t seem deep enough to me, but other than thinking most of Canada has temps like Minnesota, or arctic, I know nothing of your winters. Having lived in northern Minnesota, I expect winters to freeze up to 3 ft deep, so if I was putting in a nice pond with fish, I’d go 4’ deep, maybe a bit more. That part doesn’t have to be big, just one area guaranteed to not freeze my fish into ice cubes on really bad winters. Also, you’ll want a way to either remove plants from the bog, insulate it, or drain it for winter, or you’ll end up with frozen plant mush melting into weird goo come spring. You’ll want to find out what each plant needs, and plan and plant accordingly.

@JamieB we are actually farther south than Minnesota believe it or not...lol

Everyone up here says 2' should be fine...and i plan on running the waterfall all winter, with a deicer back up just in case...

 

[Lisak1]

So @Lisak1 do you leave the water running into your bog in the winter?

I have a deicer if need be...was planning on running it in front of the skimmer and hope that helps...naive?

I put the ball valves in on both lines so I could run water just to the bog or to the waterfall in the winter...

I guess there's a wait and see element to this also?

We do - our bog feeds the waterfall. We can bypass the bog in theory, but it's never been an issue so we keep it flowing. We'll get a solid layer of ice over the entire pond, but with the water continuously moving, there's really no need for the de-icer. We have one and keep it handy just in case we need to shut the pump down, but we rarely use it.

Like I said, your first time will be an experiment to see how your waterfall handles icing. Be prepared to pivot if necessary. One reason we decided to leave ours running was a big of a design flaw in our pond. When we shut it down, the water level drops too low and leaves our marginal plants exposed all winter. The first year they all died. So after "pondering" (haha) that problem, we decided to try leaving it running the next year. That was the year of the first polar vortex - a good test of our system!

Since you have your water split between bog and waterfall, you have a couple of options. Ours is either on or off for all practical purposes.

 

[GBBUDD]

That's exactly where a ball valve system can come in handy. if you want to run the pump all year then shutting down the bog and the waterfall can keep the air temp from droping your water temp. so if you shut down the bog and falls then you can have a return jet that you may only run in the winter to keep the water moving which will keep the ice from getting to thick " danger thin ice" is fast moving water blow the ice.

I have a section of my pond at 2' and if your thinking of koi or even gold fish they too can get big in there own way and a foot of ice is entirely possible. that doesn't leave much for the fish.So many think that the bigger ponds are so much more work and a pain when the reverse is the truth the bigger pond keeps water parameters more stabilized. a small shallow can heat or cool much faster The minimum i would build is three feet even if it is just for a fish cave it will keep the fish from getting stressed out as easily

Whoops i should have looked at all the photos your built

 

[JamieB]

@JamieB we are actually farther south than Minnesota believe it or not...lol

Everyone up here says 2' should be fine...and i plan on running the waterfall all winter, with a deicer back up just in case...

When I’m tired like I was posting my reply, I forget my geography and that parts of Canada are further south than northern Minnesota! I went to bed for a nap and woke up 12 hours later!
Be cautious mixing wild caught fish with domestic fish, set up a quarantine tank so you can check for parasites. And there are products you can use, I’ll see if I can find the bottle I had. I can’t recall what it was, but when I got shubunkins, the pond guy sold me a bottle to add to their holding water for 30 min while it temp adjusted to ensure no parasites might carry over. I ended up screwing up previously by adding wild caught fish to my pond, and lost many fish to anchor worms.