Fishless cycling/ammonia and a high 5 for Waterbug!

[JohnHuff]

I remember someone on this forum saying that most bacteria would be on surfaces and not in the water. But the bacteria has to go from place to place, right? So I tested my pond water for bacteria. I chose the outflow of a wet/dry filter that I had built, using gravel as the media. It also had a healthy amount of algae growing where it was exposed to the Sun. I was actually hoping that the algae would be exuding some bacteria killing material (also as discussed somewhere on this forum between me and WB in the past). This goes back to us joking that WB should be selling his old filters to kill bacteria or something like that? Do you remember what it was?

I bought E.coli and a general bacteria test kits. The results were that I found that there was a small amount of E.Coli, color change indicating E.coli only after 40 hours of cultivation. For general bacteria, which I assume the nitrifying bacteria will be counted as, the color change came much quicker, within 10 hours of cultivation.

At the very least, it shows to me that I should not be drinking pond water! I was hoping that some schumtzdecke would be formed by the gravel, but I think that the water was flowing too fast for it to happen.

 

[Waterbug]

The study I've found that discusses mobility the most is the following. This was for a single species. They do say N. europaea can form a bio film and also say some more general things like the bio film can be reversible or irreversible. The paper provides lots of references to other studies that provide more info.

Norm Meck's Green Water article discusses a theory of bacteria killing algae.

 

[JohnHuff]

WB, got it. It's the other way around, it's a substance that bacteria produces that kills algae! BTW, I'm gonna have to disagree with some of Norm Meck's facts. Some of his proofs seem no more than anecdotes and seem contrary to what I have experienced myself.

Also, I think I can feel biofilm, when I took out a small pump and tubing I could feel slime on it. It's film that cant be simply rinsed off, I had to use soap to get rid of that slimy film.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Also, I think I can feel biofilm, when I took out a small pump and tubing I could feel slime on it. It's film that cant be simply rinsed off, I had to use soap to get rid of that slimy film.

I've always believed you can smell bio film bacteria too. When you wipe that slime off and smell it you can detect a light fresh fishy smell, even if you have never had a fish in the water. I believe that fresh fishy smell is the smell of the nitrifying bacteria.

 

[Waterbug]

Which of Norm's facts?

I think bio film can be felt too. Always wondered though what species of bacteria. Many create a bio film.

 

[JohnHuff]

Which of Norm's facts?

3 of the myths:
MYTH: Pond algae blooms are primarily related to various nutrient concentrations in the water.
--- Don't think it's a myth. No nutrients, no plant growth. And it's a lot more complex than his FACT explanation. He says that the nutrient level are normally high (and where does he get that info from) but the algae bloom is not continuous, but we know it is not because the bloom is based on many other factors, such as light, other plants, etc.

MYTH: Providing shade over the pond will prevent an algae bloom.
--- His FACTS explanations are all anecdotal and I don't think you can disprove photosynthesis.

MYTH: A mechanical filter system will remove bloom algae from the pond water.
--- It has for me. He says that the algae are small enough to pass through the filter media but I wonder if he has experienced a certain phenomenon that I have. I have netting over my pond. When it snows, each individual snowflake is small enough to pass through the net, but over time, the snowflakes build upon each other and will completely cover the net. I believe the same thing happens with filter media. Each algae is small enough to pass through the holes in the filter media but some get caught in the edges and they in turn catch other algae. My "proof" is that my algae bloom disappears when I pump the water through my pre-filters and when I open up the pre-filters to clean them, they are clogged up with algae.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Here is some more evidence that you can smell nitrifying bacteria. Actually it's well known that you can smell bacteria, in fact bacteria is responsible for the smell of many things, both good and sometimes very bad. So if it is true, and I'm right that you can smell it, then your nose becomes a useful tool and can help you tell if your pond or aquarium has an established healthy nitrifying bacteria colony or not.
Here is a simple test that shows what I mean.
Start with some tap water, could be boiled or heavily chlorinated, doesn't mater, as long as it has no smell, not fishy, not stinky in any way. Fill up an aquarium with this water (no fish, just water) and set up a pump and some sort of filter with some sort of fabric media in it, some quilt batting will do. Soon as it's up and running and your media is wet pull it out and smell it. As long as it was clean it should smell like your water, might even have a little chlorine smell if your water was heavily chlorinated. Point is, it won't smell fishy or bad. Now let it run for a few days. To speed up this experiment you can pour in a little ammonia or pee in the aquarium if you want. Of course both those things will effect the smell temporarily, but it won't effect the end results.
Now after a week or so you can start periodically pulling out your filter media and smelling it. After a while the media will take on a this light fresh fishy smell I spoke about. It might be faint at first, but after a long enough time the smell will be unmistakable. That I believe is the smell of the nitrifying bacteria.
But the experiment doesn't stop there.
After a month or so, when your media takes on this undeniable fishy smell, take that media out and put it in an air tight plastic bag and seal it. Leave it in that air tight bag for two days at room temperature then open the bag and smell it. Don't take too big a sniff though because you won't like the smell. That smell is also the smell of bacteria, but it is not the smell of our friendly nitriifying bacteria, it is the smell of anaerobic bacteria starting to eat up all our little friends.
Anyway, I think this little experiment shows that (1) you can use your nose to detect different types of bacteria, and (2) nitrifying bacteria has it's own particular fresh fishy smell that is discernible and distinguishable from other types of bacteria, simply by using your nose.

 

[Waterbug]

@JohnHuff, the one issue I have with Norm's article is he didn't consider or exclude macro algae as a source of the micro algae toxin.

The debate on nutrients and light vs clear water is a bit frustrating to have. Obviously everyone, including Norm, can agree zero nutrients, or even any one necessary nutrient, or zero light light would mean zero algae and clear water. From my point of view it seem well documented in studies, because of all the lake and farm runoff studies, that water with large algae blooms are low in nutrients because the algae is consuming the nutrients as quickly as they appear. And the few pond keepers I've read who measure nitrate, one of the required nutrients, level seems to back that up. Zero nitrate in green ponds and higher and even high in clear ponds. So I can see where Norm is coming from.

I think everyone, including Norm, can agree some mechanical filter can remove micro algae from water. When it comes to normal pond filters it's a more difficult subject. I developed a fabric filter which worked exactly like your snowflake analogy, which was a great analogy btw and one I'm sure to use in the future. It cleared a green pond in about 24 hours. Really amazing. I thought I'd solved the algae issue and expected a Nobel Peace Prize. To do more testing I needed more green water so I set up another pond and got an algae bloom going, real thick by adding fertilizer. Hooked up my filter, documented with photos for the Nobel committee. No effect on the algae. There was a green tint to the white fabric, but no build up. Previously there was a very thick greenish paste covering all of the fabric. After many more experiments including in other people's ponds and using a microscope to see what was being trapped and what wasn't my conclusion was the filter failed whenever the algae was young in it's life cycle. Individual cells were too small. Later in their life cycle, when the algae formed colonies, the filter was 100% effective.

One weird thing was the water stayed clear after being cleared by the filter. It didn't dawn on me at the time, but why didn't the algae bloom come right back? I couldn't have gotten every algae cell. This was before the Norm Meck article, or before I read it, and unfortunately I didn't do his experiment for testing for a toxin in the water. I now can only theorize that removal of a large percentage of the micro algae allowed for the toxin level to build. I think it was the same causality when a UV filter kills a algae bloom and the UV can be turned off and the bloom doesn't return.

 

[JohnHuff]

@MW, I remember from school that the fishy smell was amines or something. So I did a google search for "What is fishy smell?" Instead of the answer I wanted I got TMI (too much info) and had to wash my eyes out. Be careful if you do a google search for that.

@WB:
1) Nutrients, ok, you are right about that. I test my aquarium water religiously now and ammonia and nitrites are zero when I test them, but I have healthy bacteria colonies. That doesn't mean that that bacteria thrives in zero ammonia and nitrite environments, it means they are utilizing them as quickly as they are formed (and they are formed because I keep feeding my fish), so Norm Meck still is wrong, he is drawing the wrong conclusion from the right results.

2) Filters, funny story. You wouldn't get the Nobel Peace Prize for that, but maybe another prize. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. You should tell Norm Meck that.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

@MW, I remember from school that the fishy smell was amines or something. So I did a google search for "What is fishy smell?" Instead of the answer I wanted I got TMI (too much info) and had to wash my eyes out. Be careful if you do a google search for that.

LOL John. I did try to quantify the aroma by saying "FRESH" fishy smell, as opposed to the aroma? you are referring too.
Anyway, you started this thread about fishless cycling. I have set up quite a few aquariums in the past, a few had plants only and I always wondered why those tanks would get that same fresh fishy aroma, without any fish, as the tanks with fish. The only answer I have ever been able to come up with is that it is the bacteria.
I have also noticed that if you go to any fresh mountain stream, even a stream that has no fish, and pick up a rock out of the stream, it will have that same smell as the media in your pond filter.
When I first noticed the smell I thought maybe it was algae, but ruled that out because it can be found in any flowing oxygenated water, even in total darkness. Take the oxygen away, and you lose the smell too.

 

[Waterbug]

so Norm Meck still is wrong, he is drawing the wrong conclusion from the right results.

I hear you, but don't understand your thinking.

While I'm more and more liking macro algae rather than bacteria as the toxin creator, I keep in mind these are only presented as theories. I will always hold Norm in the highest regard as he was the first to publish (I think) an experiment that could be easily reproduced to show there is a substance in the water from a clear pond that kills micro algae on contact. IMO that was an absolutely stellar achievement. Most profound I've ever read in regards to water gardens.

 

[JohnHuff]

I hear you, but don't understand your thinking.

I mean this:
MYTH: Pond algae blooms are primarily related to various nutrient concentrations in the water.
FACT: There is no evidence to substantiate any relationship between nutrient levels and the inception or termination of the common algae blooms in most Koi ponds.
--- They are related, they have to be related, we just don't know what the relationship is. Just because he can't find a relationship doesn't mean that there isn't one.

 

[Waterbug]

I don't understand why the inception or termination of the common algae bloom has to be related to nutrient levels. I'm with Norm... I don't know of any evidence that shows any relationship. To the contrary, everything points to no relationship.

Nutrient level is related to how intense a bloom is once it starts. But doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether it starts or not. A clear pond that has the toxin Norm demonstrated will stay clear even if nutrients, light or O2 are added. Even if new live micro algae are added the only thing that would happen is the algae would die almost on contact. That's why nutrients are unrelated. Dead algae cannot use nutrients, light or O2.

The only way to overcome this is to get rid of the toxin. Norm's experiment showed that the toxin was used up as it killed micro algae. So you could add enough new live algae to overwhelm the toxin producers, or disable the toxin producers and wait for the toxin to breakdown. But while the toxin is being produced there's just no micro algae available to reproduce.

 

[crsublette]

Yeah, I have come to believe that it is silly to think nutrient concentration dictates any type of plant growth since it is not natural to completely devoid an ecosystem of toxins. The toxins can be the water's chemistry or allelopathic chemicals or even too much of a good thing can become toxic. These toxins can be non-selective or quite selective as to which species to deter from growing. From what I understand, there are many species of algae and not all of them are affected by the same toxin and some algal species will create a tolerance to the toxins. The Skeptical Aquarist wrote a column about allelopathic control, with some references. Interesting subject.

The ecosystems created in a person's backyard pond is not natural, but this does not prevent Nature from attempting to manage it. Nature creates some nasty stuff and so it creates the appropriate entities to create remedies. I believe there is a debate whether all of the appropriate entities just suddenly appear or they need to be introduced into the ecosystem by the creators of the backyard pond ecosystem. Interesting subject as well.

 

[crsublette]

JohnHuff. Waterbug. Heh, kind of funny, I was doing some googling trying to find more information and came across another pond forum thread discussing exactly the same thing you two are debating almost verbatim.