found dying fish with black on scales..pic included

[Dave 54]

On several occasions, I have observed ulceration develop at what could have very easily been initially described as sumi such as the Goldfish pictured in this thread. As such, it does no harm to investigate this possibility further, ruling out ulceration if it is unsupported. A cursory visual inspection via a photograph is just that...cursory.....nothing more.

Yes it is Meyer and I agree but please I have had great success diagnosing fish ailments parasites etc just from photographs on this website.
I've asked Val to take a look and she agrees it is sumi , she has the same 29 year experiance of koi that I have , believe me if I thought it was the starting of an ulcer I would have called it .

Dave

 

[gardenlady]

I certainly didn't mean to start a thing here! I don't have a microscope so I can't do that and would know how or what I was looking for. I did just go out and take a reading of everything and this is where the pond tests sit today:
Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrites are zero...always are. PH *using a meter* is 8.5 which is consistent and with the KH test it took 19 drops to turn it yellow. I checked the salinity since I added it and I'm doing tests and it's at 0.17. I have not noticed one fish chasing the other but more like a follow the leader with groups of them, but I do have different size baby fish right now. I have five that have grown to several inches now as well. The only time I seem to have babies is when there are Koi added.

 

[Dave 54]

I certainly didn't mean to start a thing here! I don't have a microscope so I can't do that and would know how or what I was looking for. I did just go out and take a reading of everything and this is where the pond tests sit today:
Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrites are zero...always are. PH *using a meter* is 8.5 which is consistent and with the KH test it took 19 drops to turn it yellow. I checked the salinity since I added it and I'm doing tests and it's at 0.17. I have not noticed one fish chasing the other but more like a follow the leader with groups of them, but I do have different size baby fish right now. I have five that have grown to several inches now as well. The only time I seem to have babies is when there are Koi added.

I wouldnt worry non garden lady Meyer and I often disagree over things its just each of us has a different idea to your goldfishes black spots thats all I say they are totally natural Meyer thinks its the start of and ulcer which it isnt .
Yes they can start out black in some cases that I have known but they are always a dull mat black where as your black is shiney and part of the fishes natural colouration .

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

And just to show that first impressions can be wrong, here is a 3rd possibility.
http://www.petgoldfish.net/black-spots.html


Also, this article explains that Dave or I may be right or we both may be wrong.
http://animals.mom.me/happens-goldfish-gets-big-black-dots-him-8915.html

 

[Tula]

@gardenlady , I'm sorry about the loss of your fish. You referenced you've lost a few other fish. Did by chance, you get a close look at and of them?

 

[Dave 54]

And just to show that first impressions can be wrong, here is a 3rd possibility.
http://www.petgoldfish.net/black-spots.html


Also, this article explains that Dave or I may be right or we both may be wrong.
http://animals.mom.me/happens-goldfish-gets-big-black-dots-him-8915.html

An interesting read Meyer thanx for the link I knew about black blood in koi caused by execessive ammonia but the OP stated no Amonia and as such totally discounted it over natural colouration my friend

Dave
We can only go off what we are told along with the photographs .
Its a bit like a dectective loking at all the clues to get to the anser and studying the photo's can tell a person alott .

 

[Meyer Jordan]

An interesting read Meyer thanx for the link I knew about black blood in koi caused by execessive ammonia but the OP stated no Amonia and as such totally discounted it over natural colouration my friend

Dave
We can only go off what we are told along with the photographs .
Its a bit like a dectective loking at all the clues to get to the anser and studying the photo's can tell a person alott .

It is very important to remember that this was not a Koi, but a Goldfish...similar, but different (in many respects) physiology..

 

[Dave 54]

It is very important to remember that this was not a Koi, but a Goldfish...similar, but different (in many respects) physiology..

Both members of the cyprinid species both have no stomachsas such they process their food on its passage through the intestine
Where as goldfish are mid water feeders koi bottom feeders by their very nature and the difference is shown in the positioning of their mouth parts
Goldfish have a mouth that is unlike that of a top feeding orfe who's mouth parts are designed to take food from the surface instead a goldfishes mouth parts are positioned straight ahead for midwater feeding.
Koi however have downwards facing mouth parts which are different to both that of the top feeding orfe and the midwater feeding goldfish.
In that a koi's mouth is downwards facing for heavy suction and have four barbels at the sides of their nose and larger ones positioned at the sides of their mouths, basically each fish has its own niech in nature .
However they are as we say capable of cross breeding with one another other and are kissing cousins so to speak .
Koi grow larger and the females carry more in the way of eggs than that of the goldfish or orfe .
They are also the longest lived a goldfish can reach 40+ years of age if looked after propperly where as a koi can reach upwards of 80+ years with the same care and attention .

Dave

 

[gardenlady]

Well I know that the black was not a result of the ammonia levels because I have never had anything but a zero level in the pond. This fish had a full rounded body so I'm sure it was a female based on your descriptions. I did not really study the other fish that have died. Since all of the test levels I described earlier are consistent is there any reason for loss of fish that either of you can suggest? The ph and kh are the two that fluctuate from time to time but not by much.

 

[Dave 54]

@gardenlady we use a product called Lithaqua by Kusuri , they sell in the US perhaps you could see if they can sell it to you or not ?.
What is Lithaqua .....basically it is calsified seaweed and it is just perfect for bolstering your Kh and Ph.
A Bucket of it cost £50.00 UKP but it will last upwards of two years before you need another bucket of it .
We swear by it keeps the Kh and Ph up at the correct level

Dave

 

[gardenlady]

It seems to me that my KH is pretty high having taken 19 drops to turn the water in the vial yellow. My PH seems okay at 8.5 but it has gone higher. So does this product stabilize the KH and PH down if needed to get it where it is ideal or only raise it if necessary?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Lets discuss your test kit. Is it an API liquid kit? How old is the kit? Expiration date?
The reason that I am inquiring is that if this is an API kit, your KH test results are 'off the chart' based on the conversion chart supplied by API in the kit instructions. This would lead me to suspect that the test is inaccurate. If this is so, then the accuracy of the test results of all of the other parameters are also questionable if performed with the same kit.

 

[gardenlady]

Yes..API Kit. The KH is new and doesn't expire until March 2020, The Ammonia and Nitrite expire January 2018 and the Nitrate and PH expire November 2017. I use the eco Testr to test my PH and do calibrate it prior to each use.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Perhaps others will jump in here because I am completely confused by your test results.
Your KH is exceedingly high >300 ppm, yet this is not reflected in the pH level as it should be. Zero Nitrate is shown...highly unusual in any aquatic habitat.

KH levels this high can affect the health of Goldfish as the ideal range is between 3 and 14 dH or 54 - 250 ppm.

 

[gardenlady]

I went out and took the tests and have photos here for you to see. I quit doing the ph and ph high tests after getting the meter but included them here for you to see. The ph has ALWAYS been a royal blue so isn't even on the chart. I was told that any numbers..even somewhat high..are okay if those numbers are consistent.