Hi from New Zealand

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by MarcusNZ, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. MarcusNZ

    Dave 54

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    We had a case of mysterious burns on koi from a womans koi in South africa burned clear through the koi's mouths.
    If I remember rightly its something in the make up of the cement you can leave the pond open to the elements for a few months with no water or there's a solution you paint over the cement to negate it .
    Will have to go back through some threads on two sites to dig out the answer might take a while but I'll get back to you if thats ok
    rgrds
    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Feb 9, 2013
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  2. MarcusNZ

    Dave 54

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    Found it for you on my good friend Pieter Odendaals South african site saldy the lady got very disruptive on the site then my own and another US site and was banned from all three for being highly disruptive on all three and got it into her head she knew better than koi keepers who like myself had years of keeping behind us (she had 11 months keeping thats all )....
    Hope it helps you clarify things

    rgrds
    Dave

    I had a new take on my mouth rot. This is what Dr. Novac told me about it:
    What you’re Koi have is something that most hobbyists haven’t experienced in probably over thirty-year or more in the US, mouth lime burn disease. It’s caused by your cement pond not being cured properly before you placed your animals into your pond. In Victorian times, this was not that uncommon for their fish to get lime burn disease (it really is not a disease at all) until their pond cured and sealed. You have an improperly cured pond, and it’s literally burning the soft tissues of the inner and outer parts of the mouths of your Koi from calcining lime consisting of calcium oxide. Lime is used in the states to make soil sweet or reduce acidity in soil. Henceforth, it will make pond water pH go off the charts with high alkalinity of 8.9 or higher. One trick is to use vinegar to help stabilize pH, but this is not a long-term fix.

    Every bag of cement in the US has warnings about getting cement into your eyes or on hands for any prolong periods of time and to use protective gloves.

    Curing a pond takes a long time of filling the pond, them scrubbing it down and then emptying it out and going through process several times until the pH stabilizes to the same as that of the tap water use to fill the pond. This could take up to a year of curing the pond before it is safe for fish. For you, you would have to drop the pH to a lower level than your tap water to see if it elevates once again to unacceptable levels within 24 hours. If it does, your pond is not cured.

    Algae on the sides of the walls of the pond are not an indication that all is well and there are several strands of algae that can tolerate acidic waters as well as alkaline waters, too. The algae on the sides are not going to protect your Koi from the burns they are receding, I’ve seen this before on fish and it was always an improperly cured cement pond. Once the pond was sealed with clay or a commercial sealer the problem subsided.
     
    Dave 54, Feb 9, 2013
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  3. MarcusNZ

    MarcusNZ

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    There is no way of knowing what the pH peaked out at as my kit only reads up to 8.8pH.

    You are quite right there Dave. Here is a snippet from our (NZs) Department of Conservations website.
    That said, you will not catch me even entertaining the idea of catching some out of the river to keep in my pond. I'm happy with goldies :goldfish:
     
    MarcusNZ, Feb 9, 2013
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  4. MarcusNZ

    MarcusNZ

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    Wow, A whole year! :banghead3:
    Like I said in an earlier post, I have sealed the waterfall with a pond sealing paint for now. I will keep it isolated and test water that sits on it over time and see how it looks before reintroducing it to my pond loop.
    Thanks for the information Dave.
     
    MarcusNZ, Feb 9, 2013
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  5. MarcusNZ

    Waterbug

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    Just a myth Dave. Untreated concrete fish ponds have been in use for several hundred years. Long before EPDM and sealers were ever invented. Here's the sticky concrete thread on Koiphen. Rich also explains in detail the chemical reaction in other threads. And there are also many construction focused web sites that explain why concrete doesn't dissolve in water, here's one.

    The basics are the lime (calcium hydroxide, the high pH "burning" stuff) combines with CO2 in the water (or air) to form basically limestone (calcium carbonate). The calcium carbonate basically seals the concrete and stops additional lime from leaching. Lime does continue to leach for decades but at very small amounts and act as a pH buffer since all ponds will naturally head to low pH on their own. However, concrete is extremely slow to produce calcium carbonate and therefore an extremely poor pH buffer. Concrete ponds generally require additional pH buffering to keep pH from crashing.

    The concrete myth was widely repeated in pond forums 10 years ago but fortunately not as much any more. There are still plenty of wild and strange ideas out there on concrete.

    A bag of cement, mortar or concrete contain ingredients one of which is lime, bad stuff. When water is added a chemical reaction happens and the properties change. Which is why the ingredients are nasty but you can sit on concrete patio around a swimming pool and not be "burned" and why the warning labels on bags of cement mix are not also on sidewalks, concrete park benches, etc.
    Actually scrubbing is the worst thing you can do, that will increase leaching because it removes the protective calcium carbonate layer, the "sealer".
    Any source for this? I know the web has a lot of far out "facts" but that one is really out there.
    What species [strands]? I've read a lot about algae (such as here) not being able to handle pH in the range that would cause burns on flesh (over 10 to even start to be a concern).
    There are blue-green algae that live in high pH environments but "blue-green algae" are cyanobacteria. Despite their common name these are bacteria, not plants, and sure not the green stuff growing on the sides of ponds. That stuff is a plant.

    At some point even commonsense has to start kicking in. Algae (eukaryotes) are pretty simple plants with very little protection. They don't have bark or layers of different kinds of cells as protection. The concept that these plants can survive growing on a surface with a pH so high that fish get burned when only in occasional contact is beyond logical.
     
    Waterbug, Feb 9, 2013
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  6. MarcusNZ

    Mmathis TurtleMommy

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    Welcome!
     
    Mmathis, Feb 9, 2013
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  7. MarcusNZ

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    I don't like cement for any pond personally, unless the cement is very old and well worn. Running water can also be very corrosive over time and cement will evently crumble away. I think a proper liner would be better in the long run and avoid the problems that can come with cement. Many many years ago when I first started out, I had a big cement bricks in my pond to make a shelf and I had nothing but problems that year. I also think it would be a good idea to let the cement cure for a year at least, just because you never know for sure, and have heard of many problems in the past with cement.
     
    callingcolleen1, Feb 10, 2013
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  8. MarcusNZ

    MarcusNZ

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    Right... After monitoring the pH of the sealed parts of the waterfall for 3 weeks with no obvious issues, I decided to finally reintroduce it to the pond system 2 or 3 weeks ago.
    I'm happy to say all is okay so far. No climbing pH, odd fish behavior, deaths etc. ALL the fish have grown so much this summer. Algae rapidly formed in the falls within the first few days. It was so thick within days that it looked like it had been in use all along. We are currently in the biggest drought that I can recall with only 1 or 2 days rain since December.

    We have also discovered that we have new fry of our own. :banana: This is in addition to our 3 survivors and 13 adoptees. These (7 or more!) fry have been hiding out in the weed, a few of which have changed colour already.

    When these grow, what will govern the number of fish in my pond?

    Will I need to gift, sell or even cull new fry at some point? :yikesu:
     
    MarcusNZ, Mar 8, 2013
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