hole in ice all winter, 95% of the fish are dead as ice melts

addy1

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His pump is external, it was in his garage. His aerator, only a plastic line going into the pond enough to keep a hole in the ice.

Agree brokensword, just grasping at what might of happened.
We have had on and off snow coverage, snows melts, pond de ices, then freezes then snow melt over and over this winter.

He told me he was going to call a water testing company today, will let me know what happens with it.
 

j.w

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Well that was an interesting report. So even if we have a hole in the ice if there are a bunch of plants down there the fish are competing for the oxygen. It sounds like we need to somehow make sure we have enough oxygen down there when things get cold especially if we have a lot of fish or larger fish. How does one provide enough oxygen? It sounds like an aerator might not be enough but perhaps if there were more than one aerator in a big pond. Placing them throughout the pond area maybe? Oxygen tablets? Or any ideas?
 

addy1

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We had snow, maybe the longest on the ground was 2-3 weeks, per what I saw on the cameras. Our deepest snow was around 15 inches. So the longest his pond was snow covered ice was probably the same. He had a ap100 aerator running all winter it puts out a volcano of bubbles. So not sure it was o2, but that is a possibility.
 

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No. j.w., I didn't have an aerator in my pond when my koi died. I've tried that route, and found that an air pump alone is pretty well useless in our climate, and I can't afford to run my compressor for the entire winter! I did have a stock-tank de-icer though, and opened a hole twice a week, so this shouldn't have been a problem. I DID leave the de-icer going for about ten days after the first floater, and added an air stone a foot below the heater. The only thing that did was add about $100. to my hydro bill! And we certainly didn't have to worry about temperature FLUCTUATIONS, since it's been damned cold here since winter began, and the two days when it went up to a balmy 32 F would not have had much of an impact on the pond temperature.
John
 

addy1

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Well Tom and I went to a local pond supply store, they sale fish, lilies etc, knowledgeable. And this is what we came up with.

The water tests fine, another thing mentioned, if the water was bad i.e poison, metals, deadly, the frogs would leave the pond. He said they are the first to leave if a pond fouls on you. The pond is full of frogs. Also the snails are alive and well, so it does not appear to be a water issue. Bad o2 will also kill the snails and frogs. Tom had a ton of air flow. The pond guy suggested running the pond empty for 3 weeks then retest the water, then think of putting in some test fish. See if they survive, right now Tom has two survivors in the bigger pond, around 3 or 4 in the smaller pond. None of the dead fish looked like anything but live fish, but dead. Except the ones that were dead longer before found.

The water he sent out to be tested is normal for pond water.
 
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It is a puzzle for sure. Don't think he'll ever know what happened. Hope he gets everything back on track soon.
 

addy1

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Tom says he will get fish again, but in xx weeks, he wants the pond to just run with no fish except the few that are alive. He showed me a trapdoor that was almost 4 inches in size, huge, alive just fine.
 

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It is a mystery and we just may never know why these things happen. Feel sorry for the guy :(
 

addy1

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It sucks, would sure like to understand what happened.
 
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addy:

It would seem that if the water parameters are normal, if food was not fed too late, if no toxins are evident in the water, that one would have to consider 'loss of oxygen' or some pathogen.

I don't think fluctuations of temp would affect much at all because the water takes a long time to change, especially if there's any pond depth at all. Two weeks of 50s isn't going to melt 8" of ice that fast(I know, you didn't say he had that much ice; I was using an example. If he had less ice, such that it would melt and he could see his fish moving, ice cover was not that thick and hence, temps not that cold, either. Certainly not close enough to freezing if his fish were moving around and seen that easily, figuring that they should be at the bottom, 6 feet down), let alone affect the bottom water's temp in radical/sudden shifts. Especially of there's no pump moving water.

I do wonder where some of the water/pond experts re chemical analysis and systems process are, re weighing in on this thread. I'm certainly not one of them but I've read enough threads to know there's usually a few here that like to pontificate exponentially. Seems some of that knowledge might be of use at the moment.

From my researching, it would seem that this is a 'winter fish kill' and its conditions must have somehow been reached. The 'somehow' would be the question. Maybe there's a fine line between how much decaying plant matter was in his pond (as in; how much is too much and how much is adequate for fish to be sustained during the winter--is there some measurable amount that can be easily determined and therefore prevented for the future, or is it more subjective without such testing?). The one article I read indicated that large fish would go first in a winter fish kill; of the survivors, were they small or large?

If the aerator was in the upper portion of the pond (as I'm led to believe is proper, re the research), the lower portion might not have continued to maintain its share of oxygen and that's where the fish would have been. If there is stratification, maybe the oxygen did not disperse evenly. That said, I think I read that stratification begins near a depth of 6' (I'd have to check that number) so not sure if the bottom layer would be both colder and richer in oxygen than the middle or top.

I guess it's now easier to go with the test fish case, but I'd still have wanted an autopsy, just to be sure. He may not know the results of this test fish case until NEXT spring (and stocking his pond to the same limit as the recent past), and that's if the weather conditions are similar or worse. I think one can look at a situation and though everything looks fine, be right on the line of disaster without 'seeing' it visually.

Just some further thoughts.


>>>addendum; addy, I reread your replies and you say he saw his fish in mid Jan/early Feb, that they were healthy and looked fine. You also say this was after a thaw, then he was hit with more cold. You also note his water is greenish, indicating either algae (as I think you guessed in your post) or perhaps more decaying plant matter than assumed? In any event, algae or more decaying plant matter, wouldn't both have taken the oxygen out of the water, depriving the fish? Especially if you think there was an algae bloom; all that algae suddenly exposed to freeze and dying; there'd be a lot more decaying than the fish could handle, perhaps. I would think the water would be VERY clear if no to little activity had been occurring during the winter months. I know that even with what decaying plant matter I have in my pond, even in the summer, the water is clear, NOT greenish or cloudy. That fact all by itself tells you something was wrong re water conditions. And yeah, you'd think the ammonia would be up if he tested the 'unclear water', but this is where I'd have hoped some of the water/chem experts here would get involved. Like I said, I'm not an expert.

Just some further thoughts v2.


Michael
 
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Water with the green floating single cell algae could easily have 0 ammonia because the algae would be consuming it. With an earator and an open hole, it is hard for me to believe it was lack if oxygen. But I'm not saying it wasn't. The reason it is hard for me to believe is because that deeper water was being circulated, albeit maybe slowly. As the air rose to the top, it was pulling water up with it. That water was followed by the water below and around it and so on....
 

addy1

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He has a ap100, had it towards the shallower end of his pond. The fish that died ranged from fry, i.e. an inch or so to over 12 inches. The few survivors are 1 inch or so up to around 8 inches. Out of all his fish he has maybe 6 left. The ones that died last look like everyday normal fish no red gills, no swelling, nothing that I could see. . He did not get an autopsy. He tested the water, I tested the water, the pond store tested his water, we all got normal tests.
His water had that look of I have been sitting around all winter look, just slightly cloudy, maybe a tinge of green. You could still see the bottom, just not real well, i.e. crystal clear. Most of the fish were floating a few on the bottom he has since netted out. But again all snails, frogs, little bugs are alive, moving around. So if it was something bad, they should be dead too. Do frogs, snails etc live on less o2 than a fish? You could almost call it a early spring green water algae bloom that was just starting. We never warmed here enough to make the pond water warm. The ponds here had ice on them all winter, not feet deep, but ice.

The thing that is so puzzling is his two ponds both had fish kill, one pond 1200 gallons and the bigger unknown gallon size one. Both with holes in the ice, both open hole all winter, both the fish died. The smaller pond had no color change to the water. The smaller pond had very few fish in it, like 15 small ones.
 
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So if the ponds are separate and we assume no accidental/purposeful toxin dump, the fact both fish communities were affected and not the other denizens, makes this more fish specific, right? What can affect the fish and not the others? (as noted earlier, fish specific biological pathogens or loss of O2/buildup of gasses, and viral agents). I also hobby saltwater fish and rely on the health of the crustaceans to alert me to water quality, so I understand the relationship you're offering. In this case though, I do believe that snails/frogs can exist on less O2 than the fish, which is why I lean toward that theory.

So I still am in the 'winter fish kill' camp, with a real wonder as to how the conditions came to exist to wipe out his population. I know I'd sure be looking for reasons/signs so I would not have a repeat. Addy, you didn't say what the numbers were, that is, how many fish did he have ( approx total) and per volume of pond? If both ponds lost most of their fish and were overloaded similarly, it might point to the oxygen levels being similarly low.

And I'd really look at how much decaying vegetation there was, to assess how much their input might have affected the loss of oxygen. It really does seem like the 'winter fish kill' from articles I've read, except here you have evidence of the pond being open. One thought I had is that you say the aerator was in the shallow end. I wonder how much of the pond then was cut off from this oxygen supply? If shallowly located, how much actual O2 makes it to the deep end? That is, I wonder if the oxygen entering the pond was somehow cut off from the deeper/larger end, almost like maybe an ice shelf formed and there was local stratification. I guess I am looking for ways that the aerator failed and could be adjusted for the future, i.e. putting it deeper and more in the middle of the pond, or having a better circulation. My own aerator is located about 18" down, hovering over the deepest part of my pond (2700 gallons, 4' max depth), so I hope I don't see the same catastrophe here when the ice melts.

Just guessing here and speculating, looking for possibles. Again, no water/system process experts to weigh in? And I wonder if even doing an autopsy would have shown oxygen deprivation. I bet your neighbor will find his water and new inhabitants live and thrive just fine, simply because the population has been cut so severely. It would be interesting to find out what his fish load/gallonage was as I may have a similar problem in the future as well as my gf fry are growing up. Sort of making me a bit anxious to actually see what MY pond looks like, but we STILL have snow and ice around here. I figure maybe by May...j/k


Michael
 

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