Is there too much oxygenation?

Discussion in 'Winterizing Your Pond' started by Dmitry, Feb 20, 2018.

  1. Dmitry

    Mucky_Waters

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    I do, and that's probably why you won't find any fisheries using diaphragm type aerators.

    Also, I don't think those diaphragm aerators are capable of producing enough pressure of forcing the air to much depth.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 4, 2018
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  2. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    but the water below can't be less than 0 C, or freezing...
     
    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  3. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    true dat
     
    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  4. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    It was enough to have the water look like it was boiling through those 2 12 inch diffusers from a 5 foot depth.
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  5. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    but Mitch, isn't that what you wanted in the dead of winter? Boiled haddock? heh

    I think if it could put out enough force to keep that hole open, and NOT from the bottom but near the surface, say 18", it should have worked for you. But apparently, you're operating in less than 10 C, which we all know means you HAVE to switch to underwater pumps and cattle trough heates as well as regular heaters and you'll need to invest in cattle panels that are heavy enough so the wind doesn't blow them down...

    heh, how ARE your fish doing without all that stuff, Mitch????
     
    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  6. Dmitry

    Mucky_Waters

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    Nope. Not in pond water anyway, otherwise it will turn into ice.
    The colder the ice gets the faster it can cool the water but once the water approaches 0 c it will start to turn to ice. The barrier between the ice and water at the surface will be in a constant state of flux, the ice trying to freeze the water and the relatively warmer water trying to melt the ice. Whichever one is a bit colder or warmer will determine the victor.

    Anyway, I've learned a bit about pond breathers, that they actually have little pumps in them.

    But I still think aerators are the best bet for larger ponds or lakes. It is the air that gets trapped under the ice creating more surface area to react with the water that makes them more efficient, that and the fact that that trapped air under the ice also helps insulates the water from the ice that wins it for me, not to mention (or maybe to deliberately mention ;)) that this seems to be the method that the fisheries use to prevent winter fish kills, and not some form of pond breather, that wins me over.
    For small ponds, I think those pond breathers might be quite adequate, but for larger pond applications I'd still recommend a robust aerator.
    Thanks for the debate guys. (y)
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 4, 2018
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  7. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    I don't know why you think that it's a good thing for air to get trapped under the ice.
    Ice may be theoretically porous, but it has it's limits.
    At some point the pressure will build up and no further fresh air will enter the space under the ice.
    I'm thinking my fish may be toast at this point. I can't even drill a hole to release the gas buildup.
    Hopefully my organic load was minimal going into this winter.
    Thank you. That's more research than TOP EXPERTS do.
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  8. Dmitry

    Mucky_Waters

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    Just when I think I'm out they suck me back in. LOL
    Mitch the air trapped under the ice the air is going to be in constant contact with the water thus allowing more time for air exchange, which is one reason just running an aerator alone doesn't allow for adequate oxygen absorption. For adequate oxygen absorption, you need two things, surface exposure and time for the oxygen exchange to take place. Air trapped under the ice provides both.
    Also, you can surely see the benefit of having an insulating layer of air between the colder ice and the water in your pond?

    As far as the pressure building up enough to prevent further air from entering, I don't think that is possible. Ice always has minute cracks that would allow air to escape, and the more pressure under the ice the more cracks would form or increase in size. Certainly, it doesn't seem to be a problem with fisheries aerators, in fact, I would say the opposite might be true in that the air being forced in might cause larger fissures and cracks to form in the ice thus allowing too much of the trapped gas to be released thus reducing the effectiveness of having that air trapped under the ice.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Mar 4, 2018
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  9. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    I'll let you go for now.:)
    I need to quantify this ice permeability thing.
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  10. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    maybe there's some research on ice pressure/thickness limits and/or if ANY of this forced air gets trapped at all. It would seem IF it did, either the water absorbs it (a good thing) or it escapes through the ice (but I wonder how fast/much ice can do this as there have to be limits) or there's pressure put back on the aerator+hose+pump. I know when my aerator died, the tube was still attached, the pump still running but no air keeping a hole open, hence I figured the line got pinched. Which meant my hose prob had a hole in it? Or with no air out, no air was sucked in, creating a stalemate of function?
     
    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  11. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  12. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    Ok, so;
    Gas permeation through ice is almost non-existent.
    CO2 moves through ice at -9.5c 2 million times slower than through liquid water
    O2 does not move through ice at all.
    The inter crystalline brine film the paper refers to includes impurities found in water.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...79&s=016324f8e11804e4efef99e258cc5fa9379c4c65

    Permeation of ice abstract.jpg

    Ice permeation.jpg

    Yes, that shows the importance of submerged plants in a pond. (algae included)

    .
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  13. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    That tells me that even if you do manage to pump air in under the ice, at some point the gases in the air trapped under the ice and gasses in the pond water will equalize and the pond inhabitants will still eventually suffer from lack of oxygen. (unless you have submerged plants/algae that can provide the O2, along with a source of light)
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  14. Dmitry

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    Mitch, do you have many/any submerged plants in your pond? I'm now into year 2 of trying to get a herd of hornwort to become a forest and this spring, will add more if I find the inhabitants of my pond have been over zealous!

    So, if the ice won't let O2 escape, do you think there's actual fractures that develop or is the pond/lake truly sealed until the ice melts? And if it is sealed, where does all the additional O2 go when the hole freezes over?

    Much of what I found had to do with air infusion systems as being the best course of action. And, they tend to focus on getting a flow, bottom to top. I'm thinking in our backyard ponds, without the stratification, that this flow might not help? Not sure, actually, but from what I remember reading Bass Pond forums, they had issues with fish kill when aerators were placed at the bottom and not near the top. It's mainly why I've been advocating a higher elevation.

    There was also emphasis on getting light through the ice and keeping the algae going strong as THE source of any additional O2.
     
    brokensword, Mar 4, 2018
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  15. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    Other than algae, I don't have any plants.
    I'm hoping to take out my liner this year and replace it with a bentonite layer and get some proper submerged plants and marginals around the edge.
    I really don't like having a liner.
    I didn't find anything on fractures. I'll keep looking.
    I think if aerators are located at the bottom for the whole year, the pond should be fine over winter. I think that if aerators are only used at the bottom during the winter, H2S is stirred up and degrades water quality.
    If O2 is continued to be produced by plants under the ice, then the water will become saturated with O2 but not to the point of reaching dangerous levels. So, the fish will be fine, even with a solid ice cover as long as there is a proper fish/plant ratio and not a lot of decaying organic material.
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  16. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  17. Dmitry

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    If lived in your area I would have built two ponds that flow together. I would turn the bottom pond into a marsh and keep only small fish. The top pond would be for large fish. Pumps and ez bio filters all under water that would pump water to the top pond. The top pond would run just like my ponds and they would have little ice and/or ice that would break up fast in the upper pond as that pond the WATER LEVEL would ALWAYS be at THE SAME LeveL as ThE ICE!!!! That way the top pond would run similar to a river and the ice would go away very fast and you would not get two feet of ice in that pond as running water cuts the ice down. You don't have to have a cover as the ice will make a cover. I have the exact same cold as you. Except I don't have high winds. I would use one heater to keep ice down and unplug when temps are above -10 C. This would work for you.

    You could also put a heater in your current pond with a proper pump and very good filter, and top the water up to the level of the ice on warm days. That would melt the ice if the water was running at the SAME LEVEL as the ice.
     
    callingcolleen1, Mar 4, 2018
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  18. Dmitry

    MitchM

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    That makes all the difference.
    Evaporation is the single largest source of heat loss for a pond.
     
    MitchM, Mar 4, 2018
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  19. Dmitry

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    I have had lots of evaporation as well. I regularly top up my ponds all winter. When you heat a pond you can get lots of evaporation. Thats why I frequently unplug pond heater so the water is always ice cold. If you want to look back at my old videos take a second look. I run a hose from the house every week and add water. With the snow you get that would fall and add insulation as well. Your ice won't be so thick and you won't have to wait months to enjoy your pond. You could stock top pond with beautiful fish too.
    When I first built my ponds way back in spring of 1991, there was not much out there for information and I had to look to nature and it was then when I studied the flow of rivers and the creek I drive over every day. The ice is gone very quick in spring, sometimes months before our local lakes. I devised a plan and it has worked beautifully for many years. Its not necessary to cover ponds as the ponds will make a ice cap and with heavy snow the ponds stay very warm, with the running water cutting the ice away in upper ponds. My bottom pond has had two feet of ice some years as that is the reservoir pond and the water level falls below the ice.

    Many other people in this town gave up wintering their ponds but I have a good pond design for extreme winter. You used to tell me that I must have a micro climate or something. I used to try to tell you it was the way my ponds work. Upper levels are all pumped to max and water flows back tbrough gentle water ways to bottom ponds (not a big thrashing splashing drop). The upper ponds get next to no ice unless very cold. Then they can get two or three inches at most, and water continues to flow nicely. When temps warm up the running water cuts ice down to nothing very quick..
     
    callingcolleen1, Mar 4, 2018
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  20. Dmitry

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    And people who still believe that water can be super chilled on planet earth should perhaps google "fish living in Niagara Falls" There you will find an abundance of different kinds of fish living quite well right under the worlds largest volume water fall. And there is only two types of fish, cold water fish and Topical. There is no inbetween. I still laugh about the people who once tried to tell me that goldfish and koi would never survive in ice cold running water, that they needed warmer waters... Ha ha ha . Yes those were the so called "fish experts"

    Oh yes. Trout live very well right under the falls!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    callingcolleen1, Mar 4, 2018
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