How much is too much water change?

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I've been struggling with some major run off problems in the big pond. I've since made the changes to hopefully stop the run off, BUT we had so much rain for almost a week, the pond is a murky mess.

I did a 50% water change last week BUT the well water was also murky, so that didn't help the clarity at all. In fact it messed it up even more. The well is now clear again. I did a 50% change yesterday and its helped a bit.

How long before I can do another large water change?
 

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Meyer could you comment how much of a temp change and ph swing is too much?
Im sure there is a level where the fish become uncomfortable and another level where it is just plain dangerous for them.

I'll give a shot.

Secondary to Oxygen, temperature is the most important parameter in any pond that supports life.
In a separate thread, Dave54 commented on the abrupt drop in air temps in his area of the UK and extolled the comfort to be found in his warm bed. Dave54 was reacting to 'stress' caused by this temperature change. Even without the warm bed, he has the ability to fairly quickly adapt to such temperature changes because being a human, he is warm-blooded. Which means that his body has the ability to generate internal heat by controlling its metabolic rate. Fish, on the other hand, are cold-blooded and lack this ability to control body temperature. Their metabolic rate and , as a result, all of their other bodily functions are directly regulated by the temperature of the surrounding water. The fact that humans are warm-blooded gives them somewhat of a built-in shock absorber when it relates to temperature change. Again, fish do not have this advantage. Any abrupt change in temperature, higher or lower, will impart stress to a fish. The greater the change in temperature, the greater the level of stress. Fish do have the ability to adapt/adjust to abrupt changes The adjustment period may take several hours to several days depending on the size of the change. In the case of extreme change, mortality is the usual outcome.
What is the temperature differential that may cause major stress in fish? Well, it depends on several factors....specie of fish, age of the fish, current health of the fish, extant levels of other water quality parameters. In one study It was shown that an abrupt change of 10 degrees Fahrenheit causes noticeable levels of Ammonia autointoxication in Carp/Koi.

Abrupt changes in pH also presents problems. More toxic Ammonia is present in water as pH and/or temperature rises. In performing a water change, if there is an overall increase in pH AND temperature , besides the fish being unable to expel Ammonia, they are exposed to higher levels.
Studies have been conducted on the ability of Carp/Koi to adapt to changes in pH. Assuming all other water parameters are the same, carp/Koi can adapt/adjust to any change within the pH range of 6.5 - 8.5. If however, the change in pH exceeds either the lower or higher limit of this range, mortality is likely.
In summary, major abrupt changes in any water quality parameter rarely occur in a natural setting. Those that do occur naturally are weather-related and seasonal. Fish have the ability to adapt/adjust to these changes albeit very slowly. Although there are naturally occurring weather phenomena, such as tropical cyclones, that cause such abrupt and major parameter changes, fish just do not have the ability to survive and massive fish kills occur.
So when performing a water change, it is extremely important that the pH and the temperature of both the pond and the source water be as close to the same as is practical. If this is not possible, then any major water change should be avoided. A little common sense goes a long way.
 
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I'll give a shot.

Secondary to Oxygen, temperature is the most important parameter in any pond that supports life.
In a separate thread, Dave54 commented on the abrupt drop in air temps in his area of the UK and extolled the comfort to be found in his warm bed. Dave54 was reacting to 'stress' caused by this temperature change. Even without the warm bed, he has the ability to fairly quickly adapt to such temperature changes because being a human, he is warm-blooded. Which means that his body has the ability to generate internal heat by controlling its metabolic rate. Fish, on the other hand, are cold-blooded and lack this ability to control body temperature. Their metabolic rate and , as a result, all of their other bodily functions are directly regulated by the temperature of the surrounding water. The fact that humans are warm-blooded gives them somewhat of a built-in shock absorber when it relates to temperature change. Again, fish do not have this advantage. Any abrupt change in temperature, higher or lower, will impart stress to a fish. The greater the change in temperature, the greater the level of stress. Fish do have the ability to adapt/adjust to abrupt changes The adjustment period may take several hours to several days depending on the size of the change. In the case of extreme change, mortality is the usual outcome.
What is the temperature differential that may cause major stress in fish? Well, it depends on several factors....specie of fish, age of the fish, current health of the fish, extant levels of other water quality parameters. In one study It was shown that an abrupt change of 10 degrees Fahrenheit causes noticeable levels of Ammonia autointoxication in Carp/Koi.

Abrupt changes in pH also presents problems. More toxic Ammonia is present in water as pH and/or temperature rises. In performing a water change, if there is an overall increase in pH AND temperature , besides the fish being unable to expel Ammonia, they are exposed to higher levels.
Studies have been conducted on the ability of Carp/Koi to adapt to changes in pH. Assuming all other water parameters are the same, carp/Koi can adapt/adjust to any change within the pH range of 6.5 - 8.5. If however, the change in pH exceeds either the lower or higher limit of this range, mortality is likely.
In summary, major abrupt changes in any water quality parameter rarely occur in a natural setting. Those that do occur naturally are weather-related and seasonal. Fish have the ability to adapt/adjust to these changes albeit very slowly. Although there are naturally occurring weather phenomena, such as tropical cyclones, that cause such abrupt and major parameter changes, fish just do not have the ability to survive and massive fish kills occur.
So when performing a water change, it is extremely important that the pH and the temperature of both the pond and the source water be as close to the same as is practical. If this is not possible, then any major water change should be avoided. A little common sense goes a long way.
Thats great Meyer, thank you. I just want to clarify, if the ph stays between 6.5 and 8.5, any swing in that range is ok, although the smallest change possible is best?
 

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Thats great Meyer, thank you. I just want to clarify, if the ph stays between 6.5 and 8.5, any swing in that range is ok, although the smallest change possible is best?

The fish will still be stressed, and should recover, depending on the amount of the swing, but mortality should not occur. However, if the fish are already diseased or weak any abrupt change may put them over the edge.
 
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Well, I'm not that technical, but willing to guess the well water might be a smidge cooler than the pond (due to sunlight warming the pond). Its the same PH.

I'm not going to risk it. I'll just keep doing 50% every few days. I've come this far, I'm not going botch it up now over some clear water! Plus oddly the fish seem to be growing bigger in murky water! Is that crazy talk? Maybe because I can't see them very day. LOL!
 

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Well, I'm not that technical, but willing to guess the well water might be a smidge cooler than the pond (due to sunlight warming the pond). Its the same PH.

I'm not going to risk it. I'll just keep doing 50% every few days. I've come this far, I'm not going botch it up now over some clear water! Plus oddly the fish seem to be growing bigger in murky water! Is that crazy talk? Maybe because I can't see them very day. LOL!

Your fish may very well be growing larger. The run-off brought nutrients and other microorganisms to the pond which just increases the natural menu available to your fish. Tasty treats!!!
 
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I'll give a shot.

Secondary to Oxygen, temperature is the most important parameter in any pond that supports life.
In a separate thread, Dave54 commented on the abrupt drop in air temps in his area of the UK and extolled the comfort to be found in his warm bed. Dave54 was reacting to 'stress' caused by this temperature change. Even without the warm bed, he has the ability to fairly quickly adapt to such temperature changes because being a human, he is warm-blooded. Which means that his body has the ability to generate internal heat by controlling its metabolic rate. Fish, on the other hand, are cold-blooded and lack this ability to control body temperature. Their metabolic rate and , as a result, all of their other bodily functions are directly regulated by the temperature of the surrounding water. The fact that humans are warm-blooded gives them somewhat of a built-in shock absorber when it relates to temperature change. Again, fish do not have this advantage. Any abrupt change in temperature, higher or lower, will impart stress to a fish. The greater the change in temperature, the greater the level of stress. Fish do have the ability to adapt/adjust to abrupt changes The adjustment period may take several hours to several days depending on the size of the change. In the case of extreme change, mortality is the usual outcome.
What is the temperature differential that may cause major stress in fish? Well, it depends on several factors....specie of fish, age of the fish, current health of the fish, extant levels of other water quality parameters. In one study It was shown that an abrupt change of 10 degrees Fahrenheit causes noticeable levels of Ammonia autointoxication in Carp/Koi.

Abrupt changes in pH also presents problems. More toxic Ammonia is present in water as pH and/or temperature rises. In performing a water change, if there is an overall increase in pH AND temperature , besides the fish being unable to expel Ammonia, they are exposed to higher levels.
Studies have been conducted on the ability of Carp/Koi to adapt to changes in pH. Assuming all other water parameters are the same, carp/Koi can adapt/adjust to any change within the pH range of 6.5 - 8.5. If however, the change in pH exceeds either the lower or higher limit of this range, mortality is likely.
In summary, major abrupt changes in any water quality parameter rarely occur in a natural setting. Those that do occur naturally are weather-related and seasonal. Fish have the ability to adapt/adjust to these changes albeit very slowly. Although there are naturally occurring weather phenomena, such as tropical cyclones, that cause such abrupt and major parameter changes, fish just do not have the ability to survive and massive fish kills occur.
So when performing a water change, it is extremely important that the pH and the temperature of both the pond and the source water be as close to the same as is practical. If this is not possible, then any major water change should be avoided. A little common sense goes a long way.

I totally agree with you on this meyer and quoted a problem with large waterchanges especially when ammonia and nitrates are present in large quantities in that there may well be problems afterwards with what is known as Ph crash though my source book Diseases of Carp and Other Cyprinid Fishes ISBN 0852382529 was quoting aquarium as an example, however the same may happen in the pond if things are not done in a correct way.
Interestingly one of the authors and Fish Science lecturer was a former member of our very own society here in Plymouth one I. wellby who again interestingly nominated us for our inclusion into the Koi magazines hall of fame 2009. He was by doing that thanking us for the love and attention to detail we gave our koi that was part instumental in him choosing his career .
As you can imagine we of the Plymouth society are quite proud of his achievements in life .
As to your mention of abrubt natural changes I warm against it from time to time and have done so on this very forum .
I believe this may be the paper in question that you are talking about ? :-

Catastrophic Oxygen Depletion Koi pond in your
We are grateful to the dedicated professors and researchers at our universities for their contributions to aquaculture. Because of their hard work and attention to detail, they have given us the information we need to keep our koi ponds and pond fish healthy, so we can enjoy the wonderful past time of pond keeping.
Catastrophic Oxygen Depletion and How to Avoid It
The Indiana ADDL is located on the Purdue Campus in West Lafayette, Indiana.
by: Tim Muench, DVM, MS
Edited by: Randy White,DVM, PhD
During the warm spring and summer months, we receive an increased number of phone calls regarding sudden fish kills in ponds. The typical history includes observing a very large number of fish dead in an otherwise normal pond following a rainstorm or summer thunderstorm. Usually the owner is very concerned that the fish may have died due to "run-off" of farm chemicals into the pond. Most of the time, these fish kills are a result of a phenomenon known as "pond stratification." Pond stratification is somewhat of a misnomer, since the stratification can also occur in lakes, creeks and some rivers. The stratification leads to a catastrophic depletion of oxygen which almost always results in a very high mortality of aquatic animal life within 24-48 hours following the "de-stratification."
The scientific reasoning behind this phenomenon of pond stratification relates to the temperature of the pond. In the early spring, while the temperature of the pond is still relatively low, the dissolved oxygen is uniformly distributed throughout the pond. As the atmospheric temperature increases, the pond begins to stratify, that is, become layered, with the surface water becoming warmer and lighter while the cooler and denser water forms a layer underneath. Circulation of the colder bottom water is prevented because of the difference in densities between the two layers of water. Dissolved oxygen levels decrease in the bottom layer since photosynthesis and contact with the air is reduced. The already low oxygen levels are further reduced through the decomposition of waste products, which settle to the pond bottom. After a rain, or any other event which disrupts the two layers, a "de-stratification" or "turn-over" of the pond occurs. This has the effect of releasing all of the dissolved oxygen from the upper layer of the pond into the atmosphere, hence, a catastrophic oxygen depletion.
Once stratification of a pond occurs, there is nothing that can be done to alleviate the situation. However, pond stratification can be very easily prevented by the use of supplemental aeration. Aerators come in all sizes and shapes as well as different power sources, i.e., tractor p-t-o, electrical, mechanical, etc. It is important to aerate the pond properly, i.e. match the size of the aerator to the pond, since over-aeration is wasted and may even lead to oxygen supersaturation, known as "gas-bubble" disease and under-aeration will not prevent stratification.
In those cases where we suspect catastrophic oxygen depletion, all other possible pathogens including bacterial, viral, parasitic agents are eleminated from the differential diagnosis list. However, the history of several days to weeks of warm weather followed by a sudden rainstorm are highly suggestive of this condition. If you suspect that you are dealing with a pond turn-over situation following pond stratification, it is imperative to have the pond owner take a water sample and have the dissolved oxygen (DO) concentration evaluated immediately. This water sample should be collected in a clean glass jar or bottle with a screw-top lid and should be completely filled by completely submersing the sample and container and placing the lid on the container while it is still under water.
By: Tim Muench, DVM, MS
Edited by: Randy White,DVM, PhD

Personally Priscilla you have in place a water change regiem of 50% which is more than enough.
We do a weekly water change of 40% using the trickle method of delivery via a dechlorination unit..
During the summer temeperature matching is quite an easy thing to do , we use an infrared thermometer to do so and this is just to back up the remote pond thermometer just to get it correct.
However the water change routine carries on throughout our wintermonths and there is a big difference in water temperature coming through the pipes, if done correctly by use of the very same trickle method then the ambient temperature of the ponds water will take up the slack with no noticable change in pond temperature perhaps only 0.2c - 0.4c give or takem, as such the koi suffer no stress throughout this change .
Its something weve done for th last 5 years of our 27 year hobby since we left the large indoor aquarium for the pond.
As meyer says a little common sense goes along way in our hobby and is what keeps fish alive and well our remaining 27 year old koi can attest to that I believe .

Dave
 
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Meyer am I correct in stating that Ph is a measurement of hydrogen ions as acidity and hydroxyl ions as alkalinity in the pond water; Ph 0 - 6.99 is acidic therefore Ph 7.0 is regarded as neutral, and Ph 7.01 - 14.0 is therefore alkaline.
Thus Ph is basically a measurement of how acidic, alkaline, or neutral your ponds water is.
Ph is measured in a scale 0-14 a neutral Ph of 7 means that there are an equal number of hydrogen ions as hydroxyl ions. where a Ph of 8 means your water is alkaline compared to neutral, which has more hydroxyl ions than hydrogen ions
Am I also correct in saying that all biological process from fishes gills i;e respiration to decaying solids will reduce Ph. ?
Is it also correct that a ponds Ph level can have a profound effect on the toxicity of ammonia. ?
Now we know alkaline water, with a Ph of over 7.01 in combination with increasing temperature causes more of the ammonia to exist in the free form, which we also know is very poisonous to Koi, so If the water is alkaline it will affect the toxicity of ammonia and is serious for the health of your pond fish.
It is also very important to remember that each measured increase or decrease above or below neutral is 10 times more alkaline or acidic than the neutral reading of Ph 7.
For every single measured change above or below neutral there is a tenfold difference to the Ph
Any sudden change in Ph of one digit or more is therefore a drastic chemical change and could have devastating effects on your fish.
So if the water becomes too acid or alkaline, and swings in one direction or the other, the fish have a means of adding acids or bases to their blood to counteract the changes and equalize their internal Ph to that of the water.
However isnt it also true that they, cannot do this very quickly, and they cannot easily counteract a change in the Ph of the water of more than 3/10th's. ?
If the water becomes too acid or too alkaline too quickly, or if the Ph goes outside the koi's' healthy range for too long, the fish are in danger of getting conditions such as Acidosis or Alkalosis of which both of these conditions can be fatal.correct
Thus it be it would be better to be careful with our water changes and reduce them to what is the accepted water change levels for ammonia that being 30/40% yes or in extreme cases on a daily basis of 20-30%
But nothing more or less or am I wrong on that point ?

Dave
 
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Meyer Jordan

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Meyer am I correct in stating that Ph is a measurement of hydrogen ions as acidity and hydroxyl ions as alkalinity in the pond water; Ph 0 - 6.99 is acidic therefore Ph 7.0 is regarded as neutral, and Ph 7.01 - 14.0 is therefore alkaline.
Thus Ph is basically a measurement of how acidic, alkaline, or neutral your ponds water is.
Ph is measured in a scale 0-14 a neutral Ph of 7 means that there are an equal number of hydrogen ions as hydroxyl ions. where a Ph of 8 means your water is alkaline compared to neutral, which has more hydroxyl ions than hydrogen ions
Am I also correct in saying that all biological process from fishes gills i;e respiration to decaying solids will reduce Ph. ?
Is it also correct that a ponds Ph level can have a profound effect on the toxicity of ammonia. ?
Now we know alkaline water, with a Ph of over 7.01 in combination with increasing temperature causes more of the ammonia to exist in the free form, which we also know is very poisonous to Koi, so If the water is alkaline it will affect the toxicity of ammonia and is serious for the health of your pond fish.
It is also very important to remember that each measured increase or decrease above or below neutral is 10 times more alkaline or acidic than the neutral reading of Ph 7.
For every single measured change above or below neutral there is a tenfold difference to the Ph
Any sudden change in Ph of one digit or more is therefore a drastic chemical change and could have devastating effects on your fish.
So if the water becomes too acid or alkaline, and swings in one direction or the other, the fish have a means of adding acids or bases to their blood to counteract the changes and equalize their internal Ph to that of the water.
However isnt it also true that they, cannot do this very quickly, and they cannot easily counteract a change in the Ph of the water of more than 3/10th's. ?
If the water becomes too acid or too alkaline too quickly, or if the Ph goes outside the koi's' healthy range for too long, the fish are in danger of getting conditions such as Acidosis or Alkalosis of which both of these conditions can be fatal.correct
Thus it be it would be better to be careful with our water changes and reduce them to what is the accepted water change levels for ammonia that being 30/40% yes or in extreme cases on a daily basis of 20-30%
But nothing more or less or am I wrong on that point ?

Dave

Dave-

The paper that you cited, though correct, Is specific in denoting ponds, usually natural earthen, that are subject to stratification. This does not apply to the vast majority of Garden or Koi ponds, for stratification does not occur in ponds that are 5 feet or less in depth and in most cases the thermocline is considerably deeper than that.

As to your second question, temperature and pH are the controlling factors in the ambient levels of un-ionized (free) Ammonia in an aquatic environment. I have found no mention in any of the many papers and articles that I have read of Alkalinity (KH) directly influencing toxic Ammonia levels.

Although I have shared what I have learned about how Water Changes may affect the Water Chemistry, it does not mean that I agree with Water Changes. In fact, I do not.
 
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Although I have shared what I have learned about how Water Changes may affect the Water Chemistry, it does not mean that I agree with Water Changes. In fact, I do not.

Meyer did you ever share the details of your pond? Or the ponds you build? I can see how a water change might not be needed in one of your ponds. But in many other peoples ponds, they are needed. Not everyone has that perfect balance of mechanical and biological filtration, fish load, plants etc needed to maintain acceptable water parameters.
 

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Meyer did you ever share the details of your pond? Or the ponds you build? I can see how a water change might not be needed in one of your ponds. But in many other peoples ponds, they are needed. Not everyone has that perfect balance of mechanical and biological filtration, fish load, plants etc needed to maintain acceptable water parameters.

No, I have not shared any details on any of the ponds that I am responsible for. I do my best to avoid giving the impression of self-promotion. Suffice it to say that I am a strong advocate of following Nature's lead, which is more focused on function than form. Everything in Nature is dynamic, including Ponds which are extremely so. The idea of 'that perfect balance' is very unrealistic. The true secret to any pond is to encourage the development of a complete Food Chain.The greater and richer the diversity supported in this Food Chain, the healthier the pond. The healthier the pond, the less human intrusion in the name of maintenance is needed.
 
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Dave-

The paper that you cited, though correct, Is specific in denoting ponds, usually natural earthen, that are subject to stratification. This does not apply to the vast majority of Garden or Koi ponds, for stratification does not occur in ponds that are 5 feet or less in depth and in most cases the thermocline is considerably deeper than that.

As to your second question, temperature and pH are the controlling factors in the ambient levels of un-ionized (free) Ammonia in an aquatic environment. I have found no mention in any of the many papers and articles that I have read of Alkalinity (KH) directly influencing toxic Ammonia levels.

Although I have shared what I have learned about how Water Changes may affect the Water Chemistry, it does not mean that I agree with Water Changes. In fact, I do not.
Interesting Meyer what are your take on Dr Novaks anoxic filtration system ?
When running KKU we gave him his own forum on anoxic filtration which recieved over 43,860 visits we even had a member from Plymouth with his own anoxic setup .
One night his entire writings mysteriously vanished I know not how but Dr Novak was convinced they had been hacked , havent seen much of the chap since but I occaisonally email him from time to time , sadly having a mechanical system water changes are needed mostly from the vortex but I give the rest a good clean three times a year , mostly coming out of winter late spring then again in mid summer and then just before late fall/autumn. But the pond does boast plenty of wildlife mostly in the filtration but I always put that down as a good sign

Dave
 

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