Murky, cloudy water problem

[crsublette]

Yes my pond does take full sun but only until about 1:30 in the afternoon I drop both awnings which shades the pond completely from the hot afternoon sun.
I wish I could give you more information about this filter because it seems to puzzle most people. I'm not sure what it's called but it's not an actual filter like a piece of equipment. It is a PVC pipe placed at the bottom and water filters through the pebbles over that pipe and up through the waterfalls. I'm told by the company have been using this filter for several years and works perfectly. They install a lot of ponds here in the Las Vegas area so I'm sure they must know what they're talking about. They tell me it will not need cleaning for at least 5 to 7 years depending on how many fish I stock.
The only water change I've done in a year is having it cleaned buy them a couple of months ago. I'm getting the feeling that this pond could use another complete water change but why? What caused the cloudiness in the first place? This is what the pond looked like a month before I had it cleaned.

Yeah, I am not sold on the entire "never need cleaning for 5 to 7 years". I have never met a single Aquascape pond owner that has claimed this and, according to the pictures you shared, looks like they might have been trained by Aquascape.

I think getting a jar full of water is a good test. This will tell you if the water discoloration is due to tannins, which is a chemical discoloration of water due to organic decomposition. My thinking is that the water is actually that there is a small amount of "dirt" or "debris" or "growth" on the rocks and this gives the appears of the water being yellow. This could happen even after a pond cleaning depending on how thorough they are in their cleaning of the rock.

Also, high winds blowing in debris can be the cause of the cloudiness. After a wind storm here in the Texas panhandle, my small pond becomes cloudy quite quick due to all of the silt in the air blown into the pond.

 

[crsublette]

I have seen dozens of Aquascape ponds - never have I seen one with a setup like Gloria describes. Aquascape builds an ecosystem pond - a skimmer and a biofalls. Rocks, yes. Gravel, yes. But no bottom drain or any kind of PVC pipe at the bottom of the pond.

Meh, conceptually, I still don't see the difference. In the construction context, you are correct.

Don't see how a skimmer adds to the ecosystem since its purpose is to bypass the ecosystem by specifically removing stuff from the pond so that the ecosystem does not decompose it. Biofalls is conceptually a Skippy filter, with obvious construction differences, but, still, conceptually, functions the same as most static media bio-filters (i.e., skippy), which is a bio-filter that still requires occasional maintenance. When the system is built properly, a bio-filter should need very little, if any, maintenance; in other words, if the bio-filter takes more than 2 minutes of your time, then this is too much maintenance.

This is why I like bogs since the only maintenance there is is the pruning of plants, and, if non-aggressive plants are chosen, then only the fall pruning/cleanup is required, as it is required with any pond that has plants. If trimming is not desired and still want plants, then a bog type filter completely filled with Water Hyacinth or Water Lettuce works and looks quite nice.

 

[Lisak1]

Meh, conceptually, I still don't see the difference. In the construction context, you are correct.

Don't see how a skimmer adds to the ecosystem since its purpose is to bypass the ecosystem by specifically removing stuff from the pond so that the ecosystem does not decompose it. Biofalls is conceptually a Skippy filter, with obvious construction differences, but, still, conceptually, functions the same as most static media bio-filters (i.e., skippy), which is a bio-filter that still requires occasional maintenance. When the system is built properly, a bio-filter should need very little, if any, maintenance; in other words, if the bio-filter takes more than 2 minutes of your time, then this is too much maintenance.

This is why I like bogs since the only maintenance there is is the pruning of plants, and, if non-aggressive plants are chosen, then only the fall pruning/cleanup is required, as it is required with any pond that has plants. If trimming is not desired and still want plants, then a bog type filter completely filled with Water Hyacinth or Water Lettuce works and looks quite nice.

In the construction context? You don't see the difference between a pond WITH some kind of PVC filter/drain in the bottom and one WITHOUT? Really? The fact is, the pond described has nothing to do with Aquascape. So why you brought them into the conversation is just perplexing to me.

I won't address the skimmer comment - we all know it's a manmade system. Ecosystem doesn't imply no maintenance.

And if you were keeping up with Aquascape you would know that they are now encouraging bog building - we learned about bogs from them when we were planning our pond build. We all learn and grow from our experiences - even the professionals.

Sorry, again I know this doesn't help Gloria - I just get so weary of the constant Aquascape bashing.

 

[crsublette]

1) In the construction context? You don't see the difference between a pond WITH some kind of PVC filter/drain in the bottom and one WITHOUT? Really? The fact is, the pond described has nothing to do with Aquascape. So why you brought them into the conversation is just perplexing to me.

Actually, I agreed with you in the construction context. However, conceptually, there is no difference between her's and Aquascape's pond since they are both relying on the "ecosystem" with the rocks/gravel construction being the focus of a major influencing factor.


2) I won't address the skimmer comment - we all know it's a manmade system. Ecosystem doesn't imply no maintenance.

Fair enough.


3) And if you were keeping up with Aquascape you would know that they are now encouraging bog building - we learned about bogs from them when we were planning our pond build. We all learn and grow from our experiences - even the professionals.

Yep, and about 5 years later... they are finally encouraging bog building. Bog building has been around for a very long time. They don't learn from others' experiences. They learn from whomever has the best marketing persuasion.


4) Sorry, again I know this doesn't help Gloria - I just get so weary of the constant Aquascape bashing.

Correct, drama does not help Gloria. Maybe you might be a slight tad too sensitive to any criticism whatsoever toward Aquascape.

1) In the construction context? You don't see the difference between a pond WITH some kind of PVC filter/drain in the bottom and one WITHOUT? Really? The fact is, the pond described has nothing to do with Aquascape. So why you brought them into the conversation is just perplexing to me.

2) I won't address the skimmer comment - we all know it's a manmade system. Ecosystem doesn't imply no maintenance.

3) And if you were keeping up with Aquascape you would know that they are now encouraging bog building - we learned about bogs from them when we were planning our pond build. We all learn and grow from our experiences - even the professionals.

4) Sorry, again I know this doesn't help Gloria - I just get so weary of the constant Aquascape bashing.

 

[Lisak1]

Correct, drama does not help Gloria. Maybe you might be a slight tad too sensitive to any criticism whatsoever toward Aquascape.[/QUOTE]

It's so easy to dismiss legitimate discourse when you label it "drama". There's no drama here - just a question as to why you would bring up Aquascape when this pond clearly has no design elements common to an AS pond. The OP posted one small pictures of a small section of her pond, described a filtering system that is still rather unclear in the design, and you tied it to AS. I think that was unfair. Adding gravel to a pond bottom is not the same as an undergravel filtration system. (And by the way, if the gravel in Gloria's pond is three inches deep, that might be a big part of her problem. Too much gravel can definitely affect the condition of your pond.) It would have made as much sense for me to conclude "oh, your pond builder gave you a bottom drain. That's your problem". After all, it's on the bottom of the pond, right?

Aquascape doesn't need my help defending their pond building practices - they do just fine all on their own. I do have an AS style pond - DIY build - so I am sensitive to the constant, repetitive droning that the AS style pond is a death trap for fish. But what I'm even MORE sensitive to is bad information being shared as fact. I will happily discuss the pros and cons of an AS style pond, when it's an AS style pond that's being discussed.

You say "five years later... they are finally encouraging bog building". Five years later than what? You lost me there. But we do agree on the benefits of bog building. Our bog is the only filtration we use on our 4500 gallon system.

 

[crsublette]

1) It's so easy to dismiss legitimate discourse when you label it "drama".

It was written to indicate the discourse you wanted to continue with me does not necessarily help Gloria, but I suppose something would be gleaned from the perspectives. It was not written to "dismiss legitimate discourse" and I would have written something different, if dismissal was my point, since many know I am not coy about such matters.


2) just a question as to why you would bring up Aquascape when this pond clearly has no design elements common to an AS pond.

Post#19 where I wrote, "Conceptually, there is no difference between her's and Aquascape's pond since they are both relying on the 'ecosystem' with the rocks/gravel construction being the focus of a major influencing factor." This is why I mentioned Aquascape since this national company is what has made the concept popular, "workable", and the acknowledgment of their success by multitude of pond builders, purchased by beginner pond owners that know little about ponds, has essentially given allowances to amateur pond builders whom want to create their own deviations and renditions of specifically involving the "more natural", "less maintenance", rock/gravel bottom ponds as the focus point.

The fact different equipment is used is quite irrelevant to me since their equipment is not the focus point in their advertisements of a more "natural", more "ecosystem" friendly pond with supposed less maintenance. This is why I tied Gloria's pond design to Aquascape since these deviating pond builders are conceptually taking the same route; thus, my generality applies to Gloria's pond


3) (And by the way, if the gravel in Gloria's pond is three inches deep, that might be a big part of her problem. Too much gravel can definitely affect the condition of your pond.) It would have made as much sense for me to conclude "oh, your pond builder gave you a bottom drain. That's your problem". After all, it's on the bottom of the pond, right?

Correct, I agree. There are degrees of effectiveness; however, this does not change my generality, that is viewing most ponds as an "Aquascape" pond when the pond is advertised as being more "natural and ecosystem and less maintenance" specifically involving gravel/rock floors/walls as the focus point. Of course, there will always be deviations that determine effectiveness and I have not found, from reading testimonials, that Aquascape's construction is the most effective approach in implementing and receiving the benefits from gravel connected to a pond, which is why they are finally pushing more on bogs while reducing the depth of their gravel floor.


4) I do have an AS style pond - DIY build - so I am sensitive to the constant, repetitive droning that the AS style pond is a death trap for fish. But what I'm even MORE sensitive to is bad information being shared as fact.

I never inferred Aquascape ponds were "death trap for fish" nor have I given bad information. My guess is that your desire to be so sensitive to any criticism about Aquascape, due to I guess your indication in adapting the design, has lead you to make this erroneous inferrence about what I wrote.

As a matter of microbiology, bottled or dry spore bacteria nor any microorganism do not consume soil nor silt nor mulm, which is their final product, and this is why gravel bottom floors require more maintenance. Back when I had a rock bottom floor, which was only 1" inch thick and then due to the high winds and my location, I had to vacuum the pond once every few weeks due to the large accumulation of silt and mulm that the rock/gravel would allow to accumulate due to the objects creating a rough floor. To help reduce the demand to vacuum the silt/mulm, I would gently spray the rock once every Sunday so that the silt/mulm would get trapped in my stream rather than pond floor . Once I removed the rock and installed my diy bottom drain, then I did not have this problem.

The fact is, ponds with gravel bottom floors require more maintenance. Period.

The fact is rock/gravel bottom ponds is generally, when in comes to business, done by pond builders to help keep the pond builder in business due to maintenance service calls.


5) You say "five years later... they are finally encouraging bog building". Five years later than what? You lost me there.

My point was that bog building by pond owners has been around for a long time before they finally implemented them into their designs and the benefits were the same back then. Why did Aquascape not initially place a larger focus on them? (rhetorical question) My guess is that "back in the day" it was not financially feasible for the business since they wanted to build cheap ponds that created good revenue from maintenance service calls. They were more about building a a successful pond contracting business rather than teaching how to build a low maintenance, robust pond.

Aquascape has been around for a long time, it was not all good, and, due to a change in management, I think they are finally getting better in particular aspects.

1) It's so easy to dismiss legitimate discourse when you label it "drama". There's no drama here - 2) just a question as to why you would bring up Aquascape when this pond clearly has no design elements common to an AS pond. The OP posted one small pictures of a small section of her pond, described a filtering system that is still rather unclear in the design, and you tied it to AS. I think that was unfair. Adding gravel to a pond bottom is not the same as an undergravel filtration system. 3) (And by the way, if the gravel in Gloria's pond is three inches deep, that might be a big part of her problem. Too much gravel can definitely affect the condition of your pond.) It would have made as much sense for me to conclude "oh, your pond builder gave you a bottom drain. That's your problem". After all, it's on the bottom of the pond, right?

Aquascape doesn't need my help defending their pond building practices - they do just fine all on their own. 4) I do have an AS style pond - DIY build - so I am sensitive to the constant, repetitive droning that the AS style pond is a death trap for fish. But what I'm even MORE sensitive to is bad information being shared as fact. I will happily discuss the pros and cons of an AS style pond, when it's an AS style pond that's being discussed.

5) You say "five years later... they are finally encouraging bog building". Five years later than what? You lost me there. But we do agree on the benefits of bog building. Our bog is the only filtration we use on our 4500 gallon system.

 

[dieselplower]

I saw a scam type of video by aquascape today where they were selling "cold water bacteria" that work below 50 degrees. What a laugh. It's things like that that make knowledgeable ponders think little of the company.

 

[crsublette]

I saw a scam type of video by aquascape today where they were selling "cold water bacteria" that work below 50 degrees. What a laugh. It's things like that that make knowledgeable ponders think little of the company.

Not a scam when selling to folk that do not know better or should know better, which is whom they sell to. Here is a thread of a person trying to honestly test the effectiveness of a "cold water bacteria" bottle product called Arctic Blend.

Microorganisms, that are useful in our context, are still functional in water hovering around 50 degrees, but, to process the volume of waste we are giving them, then a change in the filtration system is required. Since I have been involved in the aqua-ponic hobby, I have seen bio-filters still perform incredibly well even in waters with a temperature of 45*F, a pH of 5.8, and with only a slight reduction in feeding since they still want an average feed to protein generation ratio in their fish; the systems were kept in this type of environment due to overhead costs. There are many misconceptions about how these microorganisms behave and the environments required for them to merely operate, which is not the same to say they are optimally operating; however, optimally operating microorganisms is not necessary dependent on the filtration system. I have learned this from watching aquaculture farming systems thrive in such environments.

The only type of bottle bacteria truly effective is the stuff that decomposes complex organics, that is typically referred to as sludges, except even some of these should be given a raised eyebrow. There is good packaged bacteria, that decomposes inorganic chemicals (i.e., ammonia, nitrite) products out there, except they are sent in specialized packaging, same day or next day delivery, with a very short shelf. Most of the good stuff is too expensive to use in a pond context.

 

[Lisak1]

First you said this: "Aquascape is a major national company that has pushed these type of undergravel filtration pond setups." That is false. Aquascape does not push ANY kind of undergravel filtration pond setup. Never has and still doesn't. So that is bad information.

Then you said this: "...according to the pictures you shared, looks like they might have been trained by Aquascape." That pond looks nothing like an Aquascape pond. And yet you say they "might" have been trained by AS. LOTS of major national pond building companies build rocked ponds, and lots of small, independent landscapers call themselves pond builders and try to copy the big guys without knowing what they are doing. Saying "it has rocks in it somewhere somehow, therefore it's the same thing" is just nuts. Also - how many AS pond owners have you met? I mean actual ponds built by AS? I've met dozens and seen their ponds. All functioning beautifully.

Then you said: "My point was that bog building by pond owners has been around for a long time before they finally implemented them into their designs and the benefits were the same back then. Why did Aquascape not initially place a larger focus on them? (rhetorical question)" I'll answer you anyway- in fact, I already did. They are learning and growing as a company. They learn from their own experiences building hundreds of ponds a year. And they learn from their own backyard ponds. Experience is a great teacher.

You further said: "My guess is that "back in the day" it was not financially feasible for the business since they wanted to build cheap ponds that created good revenue from maintenance service calls. They were more about building a a successful pond contracting business rather than teaching how to build a low maintenance, robust pond." Cheap ponds? Define cheap. How do you know what kind of pond they wanted to build? And then tell me how is using a biofalls cheaper than a bog? Are bogs costly?

You ended with: "Aquascape has been around for a long time, it was not all good, and, due to a change in management, I think they are finally getting better in particular aspects." Change in management? Never happened. More bad information. The same folks run Aquascape now that were running AS in the beginning. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Maybe I should have started with that question.

 

[dieselplower]

I noticed Lisak is from Northern IL, which is where Aquascapes is headquartered. Coincidence? Also Aquascapes sure has had a change in management. Says so right on their own webpage. It is my understanding Aquascape ponds need a yearly clean out? Doesn't seem to be "functioning beautifully" to me. But they do suggest 5 things you can just dump into the pond instead!

 

[Lisak1]

I noticed Lisak is from Northern IL, which is where Aquascapes is headquartered. Coincidence? Also Aquascapes sure has had a change in management. Says so right on their own webpage. It is my understanding Aquascape ponds need a yearly clean out? Doesn't seem to be "functioning beautifully" to me. But they do suggest 5 things you can just dump into the pond instead!

Um... coincidence in what way? Coincidence that I have an AS style pond? Or are you suggesting something else?

Where does your "understanding" regarding AS ponds needing a yearly clean out come from?

As far as AS management - whatever. People can read the website for themselves if they really care. It really has no bearing on this conversation at all.

Here's my only point in continuing this conversation - if you google "Aquascape" this is the kind of stuff you find. People spreading misinformation and repeating things they heard from someone else as if it were fact. I don't care if you don't want rocks in your pond. I don't care if Charles doesn't want rocks in his pond. But I think it is fair to hope people will share information that they KNOW to be factual so that others who may be just getting into ponding can get a fair assessment of different approaches to building a pond.

 

[dieselplower]

thats on their site too!

 

[Lisak1]

thats on their site too!

What is?

 

[crsublette]

1) First you said this: "Aquascape is a major national company that has pushed these type of undergravel filtration pond setups." That is false. Aquascape does not push ANY kind of undergravel filtration pond setup. Never has and still doesn't. So that is bad information.

Ok, Going to answer you directly from Aquascape using their own words.

Aquascape verbatim states... "Rocks and gravel offer a natural place for aerobic bacteria to colonize and set up housekeeping. This bacteria breaks down the fish waste and debris that would otherwise accumulate in the pond and turn into sludge. Regardless of your pond's location (i.e. close to trees and loads of leaves), or how many fish you have in it, you'll find that having rocks and gravel in your pond not only makes it look better, but it makes it healthier as well. So contrary to the myth, having rocks and gravel on the bottom of your pond actually allows Mother Nature to clean up after herself."

Yet, you say, "Aquascape does not push ANY kind of undergravel filtration". Unfortunately, Aquascape disagrees with you. Again, the fact the construction is not exactly like a "true" aquarium undergravel filtration system is quite irrelevant to me since Aquascape's intentions are clear in stating the rocks and gravel primary purpose is to them to be a part of the filtration system rather than aesthetics.


2) Where does your "understanding" regarding AS ponds needing a yearly clean out come from?

Aquascape verbatim states... "If you decide to work in harmony with Mother Nature, using the five-part recipe, instead of doing battle with her, then draining and cleaning your pond should take place only once a year (at most)." By the way, from reading AS owner testimonials, I do not believe this "once a year (at most)" statement one bit at all.


Aquascape does make beautiful ponds with great aesthetics...

All of which comes at significant cost (i.e., draining and cleaning the pond, as is previously mentioned) including other issues due to cheap construction since they are more interested in selling their Aquascape merchandise (i.e., Aquascape Bio-falls and Aquascape Skimmers, etc) rather than using quality construction and quality equipment so that annual draining of the pond and annual cleanings would never be recommended, that is not even "at most once a year".


As for the rest of your post, responses are unwarranted. This has gone on too long. This is all I am going to say on this subject.

Lisak, if you want to continue defending Aquascape, then I recommend you creating a new thread.

 

[JohnHuff]

Aquascape verbatim states... "Rocks and gravel offer a natural place for aerobic bacteria to colonize and set up housekeeping. This bacteria breaks down the fish waste and debris that would otherwise accumulate in the pond and turn into sludge. Regardless of your pond's location (i.e. close to trees and loads of leaves), or how many fish you have in it, you'll find that having rocks and gravel in your pond not only makes it look better, but it makes it healthier as well. So contrary to the myth, having rocks and gravel on the bottom of your pond actually allows Mother Nature to clean up after herself."

More accurate:
Rocks and gravel offer a natural place for aerobic bacteria to colonize and set up housekeeping but is a real hassle to clean and becomes a place that waste can build up and become toxic.

This bacteria breaks down the fish waste and debris that would otherwise accumulate in the pond and turn into sludge, but it's better for this bacteria to be in a place where there is a lot of water flow and oxygen, like a biofilter, and better still a moving media filter.

Regardless of your pond's location (i.e. close to trees and loads of leaves), or how many fish you have in it, you'll find that having rocks and gravel in your pond not only makes it look better, but it makes it healthier if you don't mind cleaning your rocks and gravel every two weeks.

So contrary to the myth, having rocks and gravel on the bottom of your pond actually allows Mother Nature to clean up after herself but this only applies in a fast moving stream where the waste is washed away quickly and frequently.