New Pond Build Questions.

[javabob]

Hi Everyone,

So the wife and I started digging our first pond.
I've been doing a lot of reading and video watching but still have a few questions.

The pond will be 4400 gallons.
I still haven't decided on an external or submersible pump. We live in minnesota so I'm not sure if and external can run
during the winter.

My plan was to have a biofalls spillway and a stream running to the pond. Will a pump rated for 4400gph create a completely rediculous deluge of water? Or do I need to have 2 pumps, one for the falls and one for filtration? If it's option 2, how the heck do I do that?

At my old house we had a 600 gallon above ground water garden and a uv clarifier was pretty much a neccesity. Will I need one
on a bigger pond like the one we are building?

Not sure if it will help any but here is a pic of the digging in progress, and my poor tired wife pushing the wheelbarrow

Thanks
javabob

 

[fishin4cars]

You'll want the total turn over rate in the pond to be between 3/4 and 1-1/2 turn over rate per hour. That's just normal turnover for most average ponds, Koi only can go way higher, water lily ponds tend to like the lower end of the spectrum. I run two submersible pumps. They are cheaper and easier to replace in my opinion, but the trade off is they can use more electricity and don't normally last as long as external pumps. I run two pumps, two complete different filtration circuits. the reason being if one happens to fail there is a second back up working that can help until I get the problem fixed on the other. I run one pump from the skimmer to the filter fall system. the second pump I have in the pond and have it raised to about 18" off the bottom. this way if for some reason I break a line of start losing lots of water I can not empty my pond, there will always be 18" of water in the pond even if catastrophe happens. This pump goes into my bog filter and flows back in through a second smaller water fall. My turn over rate is 1.25 per hour total between the two pumps and water lilies and Koi are doing great. Water stays crystal clear and No UV, NOTE I'm in Southern La. pond is in Full sun, water temps are in the 80's.

I do highly recommend you at this point in your build to be looking into all your options about using planting shelves. I always had them in previous builds. This time I built my pond with two small shelves, one for me to place small lilies on to start them which is also my escape steps out of the pond, the second is on the back wall and above it is a steep wall of rocks, The edges are all cut straight down to a depth of 30" This really helps cut down on fish loss due to Raccoons and Herons. My total depth in the center of the pond is 40" My goal was for 48" but due to some unforeseen issues in the build I ended up having to go wider than I wanted and more shallow. due to liner size. I use milk crates for planting shelves. I try to only use black so they don't show as much against the liner. This gives me the flexibility to move a plant where I want it, provides a safe haven for baby fish to hide and really helps on predator control. Also the edges are fairly smooth so it doesn't injure the fish and milk crates don't effect PH or hardness like some cinder blocks or bricks can. After being wiped almost completely out two years ago I didn't want that to happen again. I also must note, We lived in a subdivision, with a dog in a small community and the heron still found my little 2500 gallon oasis. Now we live in the country, we see herons at the large pond daily, So far that I am aware of we have had 5 fish just come up missing, One a King fisher got for sure, the others, could have been any of the above mentioned predators along with Eagles, hawks, Owls, etc. the deep sides have made a difference I honestly believe. Something to think about and research and can be done with no additional or minimal additional cost at this point in the build. Bird netting is about the next best option, looks terrible and they aren't cheap. Cost for cost, look for look I have really begun to like the deeper sides straight down and no shelves over having netting over the pond.

 

[sissy]

welcome and I run submerged also this way I can run them all winter .Here of course winter is about 2 months long .I do hope your pond is around 4 ft. deep for your winters and you may want to invest in a pond heater now while they are on sale .I bought one and run it above my pumps so the water goes into the filters a little warmer and keeps them from freezing .I run 2 pumps 1 is a harbor freight and uses 150 watts and the other is a laguna and runs it says 115 watts .But watt tester says it is 130 watts .The HB one is 2150 gph and the laguna is 2900 gph .I like having 2 pumps this way if one goes out I am not in a panic if one goes out .

 

[javabob]

Great feedback guys!

I guess I'll go with 2 submersible pumps then. One will go to the waterfall. What should I do with the other one?

It's hard to tell from the picture but I am digging in shelves. They step down by 1 foot each. I was going to put the pump on a 3 foot shelf to protect against draining.

I attached a side view drawing of my plan. I would love some more feedback and advice!

 

[dieselplower]

I would eliminate the steps on one half of the pond. More gallons of water for the fish and more safe from predators.

 

[HTH]

Or get rid of the steps and use benches.

 

[capewind]

.My plan was to have a biofalls spillway and a stream running to the pond. Will a pump rated for 4400gph create a completely rediculous deluge of water? Or do I need to have 2 pumps, one for the falls and one for filtration? If it's option 2, how the heck do I do that?

It really depends on how you set things up if you run one or two pumps ... on a 4400 gallon pond, with an average fish load, I'd be looking at total pump movement of 6600-8800 gph ...

Not sure if it will help any but here is a pic of the digging in progress, and my poor tired wife pushing the wheelbarrow

ohhh gawd that looks like aweful digging ... I'd be screaming for a machine LOL.

PS ... welcome to the group

 

[capewind]

water lily ponds tend to like the lower end of the spectrum.

True, but that really has little to do with the total performance of a pump or pumps ... you can control your circulation ... Example ... with our pond(s) ... two connected ... upper pond is 2000-2500 gallons (hole says 2500 gallons, but there is some gravel in there too, eventually, it will be all gravel) ... lower pond is about 6500 gallons ... main pump is 8000 gph external ... pump intake is in the 6500, but discharges to the 2500 ... the lilies are in the 2500 ... because of where the filter/filter discharge is, the water where the lilies are is nearly dead calm.

look for look I have really begun to like the deeper sides straight down and no shelves over having netting over the pond.

another option/alternative to a "shelf" is to dig "as if" you are making a shelf, but dig it twice as wide, and use rocks to make a front wall ON the shelf, and then fill with gravel ... then you can direct plant items, the same way you would on dry land ... hubby just did this on a pond install for a client and will be doing the same on the pond we have going in next here.

 

[sissy]

I have 2 filters and a hose from each pump goes to each filter and extra is diverted to the water fall with a ball valve and part is just allowed to go right back into the pond .I have the hose tide under the bridge at water level and the water just skims the surface of the water ,helps aerate the water .

 

[fishin4cars]

True, but that really has little to do with the total performance of a pump or pumps ... you can control your circulation ... Example ... with our pond(s) ... two connected ... upper pond is 2000-2500 gallons (hole says 2500 gallons, but there is some gravel in there too, eventually, it will be all gravel) ... lower pond is about 6500 gallons ... main pump is 8000 gph external ... pump intake is in the 6500, but discharges to the 2500 ... the lilies are in the 2500 ... because of where the filter/filter discharge is, the water where the lilies are is nearly dead calm.

I agree 100%, My remark is for a lily pond with little or no fish load. Of Course there are multiple options and this is why I also remarked that the member may want to research these options. I've seen lily pond with fish that stayed crystal clear with maybe 1 full cycle of the pond going through the pump every 6 hours, and I've seen ponds with 4 time a hour turn over rates and both worked for that particular pond keeper. For new pond builders I usually try to direct them to at least a once per hour turn over rate to get started.

another option/alternative to a "shelf" is to dig "as if" you are making a shelf, but dig it twice as wide, and use rocks to make a front wall ON the shelf, and then fill with gravel ... then you can direct plant items, the same way you would on dry land ... hubby just did this on a pond install for a client and will be doing the same on the pond we have going in next here.

Again, this is a option and it can be used and sounds like it would give a very nice effect. I would love to see some pics! But to the new member I would recommend reducing the first shelves for the most part, Will help to protect the fish against predators and add to the total gallons of water for the same size liner.

Also on the picture above, (I don't know how to draw in what I'm trying to say. But can someone show JavaBob how to cut the top in so the rocks sit on a very shallow shelf and helps hide the liner. IMO, this helps in the final landscaping of the ponds, gives a nice natural effect yet once the rocks are in place leave a hard area for predators to stand and try to fish.

 

[capewind]

Larkin ... these pics may help ... rock shelf depth will depend on the type of rocks used, and how deep you want rocks under water ....

Ignore the old pond in the background, that was the pond being "replaced" but wasnt ready to move the fish to their temp home ... this pic was the first fill, still adjusting the liner ...


Rocks on the liner, liner is secured in place ... you can also see what I was talking about with making wide shelves that are filled with gravel as planting media ... (the back area with no rocks in this pic is where the 100 gallon skippy filter, buried in rocks is now)... pond is 3' deep, no shelves for an easy buffet ,, if the weather is good, will try to grab more pictures tomorrow to show the liner hidden...

 

[javabob]

Oh man you guys are awesome.

I'll get rid of the first shelf, ugh, digging, more digging. I dream of digging clay, it's horrible, lol.

I really love that top shelf capewind, it's genius. Could you use rubber mulch instead of pea gravel?
If I remember correctly I've seen brown rubber mulch that might match the soil, or black to lessen the contrast to pond.

In the areas that I dont do the extended shelf I was going to use bond block. I have a picture below of one and one of my crappy drawing to show how I was going to use it.
Please let me know if you see any problems with this.

Thanks a bunch
javabob

 

[fishin4cars]

Larkin ... these pics may help ... rock shelf depth will depend on the type of rocks used, and how deep you want rocks under water ....

Ignore the old pond in the background, that was the pond being "replaced" but wasnt ready to move the fish to their temp home ... this pic was the first fill, still adjusting the liner ...


Rocks on the liner, liner is secured in place ... you can also see what I was talking about with making wide shelves that are filled with gravel as planting media ... (the back area with no rocks in this pic is where the 100 gallon skippy filter, buried in rocks is now)... pond is 3' deep, no shelves for an easy buffet ,, if the weather is good, will try to grab more pictures tomorrow to show the liner hidden...

Those pics do help a lot. Thanks! great idea!


Bob, as for the liner in there and dirt coming up to the edge if the drawing is like it would look like when installed I would be very worried about the dirt behind the liner washing into the pond, Which can make a heck of a mess to clean back out. If you want to stick to that plan I would suggest using something other than dirt or mulch, gravel or rubber mulch might do better there. I wouldn't use rubber mulch on the area that capewind is showing the shelf, If the water level got up high enough such as in a overfill or heavy rain you would have that mulch all over the pond. Pea gravel is going to cover with algae and plants and really not visible once it's grown in.

 

[capewind]

I really love that top shelf capewind, it's genius.

It's really just a mini bog in concept. It gives more places to plant, without the issues of making a seat at the buffet. The skinny one on the left, with the edge and top rocks in place, is less than a foot wide. We robbed our pond for plant starts, and to give it a jump, I planted it heavy (when it over grows, I just plan to take plants back, so we can say they are on loan LOL) ... By heavy, I mean I planted two small clumps of water celery (each end), have 6 pickerel weeds, a foot apart, and a tiny bit of water clover and pennywart I had growing in the window ... in a month, you wont even see the gravel there. The larger planting area, has 3 orange sedges, 2 variegated sweet flags, two good sized clumps of iris (one purple, one white), and a couple of mini cat tails (dont like them, may pull them out) ... once I have more pennywart/clover again, will run more over, once everything grows, you wont see the gravel, most of the year ...

Could you use rubber mulch instead of pea gravel?

Ive never seen rubber mulch here, and dont know if it leeches any chemicals or not. Totally clueless to it's safety. You can however get different colored gravel. We have a brown in our bog area, but it is really expensive for us to get here, and the closest supplier is an hour away ... we could add brown gravel from bags to top dress it with, but you end up digging in it more than you would think, and it gets mixed in ...

 

[javabob]

Larkin, thanks for the heads up on the dirt, it never crossed my mind that it could wash into the pond during a rain.
It looks like I'll scrap the beam block.

Capewind, I can't believe I didn't even think about the fact that plants grow and will fill in the mini bog. I think I has need more brain food, lol.

I love all the help you guys are giving me. In my head I see a totally different pond than my initial plan, and I love the direction it's headed.


javabob