Periodic fish deaths

[pineapple]

I have a band new API liquid kit. Actually, I tested the hose water I use to top up the pond and it looks to contain ammonia? My colour discrimination isn't great but rather than a definite yellow, the result (to me) looks tinted with green. Will continue to test daily and check KH/GH later too (were good last I checked but might have drifted down since).

Edit: it would seem likely that the local water supply uses chloramine, which would explain the low chlorine test result. I am assuming then that water changes are actually making things worse.

 

[cas]

Ugh. If tap water has chloramines you need to treat the water as it is added to the pond. Chloramines will not dissipate like chlorine will.

 

[addy1]

yeah? Well....can you whisper that a bit louder in the Super Boss' ear so my pay hike request goes through? You have no idea how long it's been tangled up in GPF red tape...sigh...they give me a squire with a dog and expect me to figure out a way to keep the halls clean AND feed the pups! Not like lil Queenie is making my life easier either, let me tell you, see it's the...


[Shadow Moderator interception; this post has been flagged as erroneously out of place in a technical thread, hence the rest of it has been banished to the koisphere, somewhere in the jungles of Great Britain. No need to ask; we buried it very well and Mssr Brokenpointy's credentials are now being thoroughly investigated for 'anti-pond' behavior and well, suspected honey theft, too. Needless to say, he's been sent to his corner and the OTG something or other has been put on notice to reign him in.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...]

You get a hall pass this time, since you also helped with some very good advice.......................

 

[addy1]

it would seem likely that the local water supply uses chloramine,

Agree with @cas get the stuff that wipes out the chloramine. I use nothing but our well water is also not treated. So can't advise you on the best stuff to buy.

 

[brokensword]

I have a band new API liquid kit. Actually, I tested the hose water I use to top up the pond and it looks to contain ammonia? My colour discrimination isn't great but rather than a definite yellow, the result (to me) looks tinted with green. Will continue to test daily and check KH/GH later too (were good last I checked but might have drifted down since).

Edit: it would seem likely that the local water supply uses chloramine, which would explain the low chlorine test result. I am assuming then that water changes are actually making things worse.

as cas said; use the dechlor when you do. Once you get the water straightened out and equilibrium on track, you won't need water changes.

 

[pineapple]

I'll avoid water changes. If I need to top up, will use the prime.

Am I right I understanding that prime will remove the chlorine, break down chloramine, and bind ammonia, but without an active biological filter that added water might actually be contributing to my overall ammonia levels?

I think I killed most of my biological filter at some stage through a combination of scrubbing, vacuuming, and cleaning out the pressure filter... Seems like after the bog goes in I'll need to "cycle" it?

GH and KH were 125.3ppm and 89.5ppm respectively.

 

[brokensword]

I'll avoid water changes. If I need to top up, will use the prime.

Am I right I understanding that prime will remove the chlorine, break down chloramine, and bind ammonia, but without an active biological filter that added water might actually be contributing to my overall ammonia levels?

I think I killed most of my biological filter at some stage through a combination of scrubbing, vacuuming, and cleaning out the pressure filter... Seems like after the bog goes in I'll need to "cycle" it?

GH and KH were 125.3ppm and 89.5ppm respectively.

if you didn't reverse them, then the KH is on the low side. From what I read, aim for 150 KH.

I believe Prime will bind the ammonia but then release it after 48 hours, so the trick here is to lower that ammonia and not depend on the Prime regularly. If you have ammonia in the source, then you will be adding. IF your bio filtration is up to snuff, it should handle low amounts. But if your water is having issues, I could see it being an addional problem. You DO have to add the Prime though to battle the chlorine(amines), so don't stop for that reason when you add, unless you're topping off 10% or less.

It is quite possible you did damage the good bacteria but they will eventually surge back. Just need time/patience.

I'm unsure exactly where we are with your water; I know you rehomed some fish. Have you done any water changes? Is the color anything but clear? Have you added any more plants (or, do you have a lot now? Sorry, am forgetting earlier conversations). I think were it mine, and the water is murky and the fish still aren't acting right, I'd 1/3 change the water out and wait. I'd not feed for a bit, take some daily readings, get the KH up (I believe you're going to want bicarb, added slowly, slowly as it'll increase the pH too. You can also get some crushed shells (sea, oyster, egg) in a large bag and put it in your pond. This will up the KH naturally, but it'll take time as some has to dissolve into your water. If acidic, it'll dissolve faster. You're not looking to get any specific pH, just something stable but your KH should be raised, imo, and the pH will go with it to a degree.


How are the fish you have left doing? Can you post update pics of the pond and water?

 

[pineapple]

if you didn't reverse them, then the KH is on the low side. From what I read, aim for 150 KH.

I believe Prime will bind the ammonia but then release it after 48 hours, so the trick here is to lower that ammonia and not depend on the Prime regularly. If you have ammonia in the source, then you will be adding. IF your bio filtration is up to snuff, it should handle low amounts. But if your water is having issues, I could see it being an addional problem. You DO have to add the Prime though to battle the chlorine(amines), so don't stop for that reason when you add, unless you're topping off 10% or less.

It is quite possible you did damage the good bacteria but they will eventually surge back. Just need time/patience.

I'm unsure exactly where we are with your water; I know you rehomed some fish. Have you done any water changes? Is the color anything but clear? Have you added any more plants (or, do you have a lot now? Sorry, am forgetting earlier conversations). I think were it mine, and the water is murky and the fish still aren't acting right, I'd 1/3 change the water out and wait. I'd not feed for a bit, take some daily readings, get the KH up (I believe you're going to want bicarb, added slowly, slowly as it'll increase the pH too. You can also get some crushed shells (sea, oyster, egg) in a large bag and put it in your pond. This will up the KH naturally, but it'll take time as some has to dissolve into your water. If acidic, it'll dissolve faster. You're not looking to get any specific pH, just something stable but your KH should be raised, imo, and the pH will go with it to a degree.


How are the fish you have left doing? Can you post update pics of the pond and water?





View attachment 146392

I guess a summary is in order!

Since the first post, 2x 30cm and 2x 25cm koi have been rehomed. Remaining fish are all goldfish. In addition, several larger goldfish have died. 1x 15cm to dropsy, 1x 10cm with red gills (presumed ammonia poisoning), and 1x mystery disappearance of a 10cm shubunkin (gone without a trace, but was swimming unevenly last I saw a week or so ago).

Two days ago I did a partial water change - vacuuming leaves and sludge in case this was contributing to ammonia levels. Now I know that the ammonia is probably coming from the tap water, I won't be doing that so much! It was about a 10% change, dosed with Prime during addition. Next day, one dead fish (the one with the red gills).

When I did the water change I also flushed the cannister filter and my fountain all-in-one filter (both UV). They might be keeping green water at bay, because the last two days the water is super clear.

Remaining fish are acting normally, apart from one who has been battling what I think is tail rot for a few weeks - has a dysfynctional ventral fin, tattered tail fin, and sits on his own, clamped, at the bottom of the pond all day. I'm not sure how to help him. Another fish has obvious looking scales, but they're not poking out and he doesn't look bulged so I am hoping he's fine (swims fine, fins all look good, eating well, no odd behaviour). That being said I have a lot to learn about fish behaviour!

I'll build and start the bog this weekend (assuming I don't muck up the build!) 220L is the biggest I can take on/afford at present but hopefully it will up the biofilter capacity, and I will refrain from any new fish until I am confident things look good again!

Thanks, will look at raising the KH. Will retest to make sure I didn't reverse by mistake. Is this possible to raise KH without raising pH, given it already sits high at 8.2-8.4 most days?

Pictures attached from today. The pond is "figure 8" shaped with a bridge over the middle. Please excuse the messy air lines, I haven't got around to weighing them down yet. Lots of this pond design is still from the original owner/builder - trust me, if I did it from scratch, I would have gone about things very differently!

Also attached is a bit of growth on the waterfall area. Not sure if this is something I should encourage or remove!

 

[brokensword]

I guess a summary is in order!

Since the first post, 2x 30cm and 2x 25cm koi have been rehomed. Remaining fish are all goldfish. In addition, several larger goldfish have died. 1x 15cm to dropsy, 1x 10cm with red gills (presumed ammonia poisoning), and 1x mystery disappearance of a 10cm shubunkin (gone without a trace, but was swimming unevenly last I saw a week or so ago).

Two days ago I did a partial water change - vacuuming leaves and sludge in case this was contributing to ammonia levels. Now I know that the ammonia is probably coming from the tap water, I won't be doing that so much! It was about a 10% change, dosed with Prime during addition. Next day, one dead fish (the one with the red gills).

When I did the water change I also flushed the cannister filter and my fountain all-in-one filter (both UV). They might be keeping green water at bay, because the last two days the water is super clear.

Remaining fish are acting normally, apart from one who has been battling what I think is tail rot for a few weeks - has a dysfynctional ventral fin, tattered tail fin, and sits on his own, clamped, at the bottom of the pond all day. I'm not sure how to help him. Another fish has obvious looking scales, but they're not poking out and he doesn't look bulged so I am hoping he's fine (swims fine, fins all look good, eating well, no odd behaviour). That being said I have a lot to learn about fish behaviour!

I'll build and start the bog this weekend (assuming I don't muck up the build!) 220L is the biggest I can take on/afford at present but hopefully it will up the biofilter capacity, and I will refrain from any new fish until I am confident things look good again!

Thanks, will look at raising the KH. Will retest to make sure I didn't reverse by mistake. Is this possible to raise KH without raising pH, given it already sits high at 8.2-8.4 most days?

Pictures attached from today. The pond is "figure 8" shaped with a bridge over the middle. Please excuse the messy air lines, I haven't got around to weighing them down yet. Lots of this pond design is still from the original owner/builder - trust me, if I did it from scratch, I would have gone about things very differently!

Also attached is a bit of growth on the waterfall area. Not sure if this is something I should encourage or remove!

View attachment 146400View attachment 146401View attachment 146402View attachment 146403

I'm a bit surprised with such a high pH your KH is that low...btw, 8.2 isn't worrying and I don't think your pH will go up much if you do the crushed coral/shells trick. Just confirm your number IS in the 80s and not the 135, which would be a lot better.

As i look at your pics, just want to clarify that the yellowy green I see is algae ON the UW surfaces. Maybe it's just the angle of sun. Btw, have you checked temps lately? I imagine you get warmer water than typical and fish can suffer more re O2 loss at higher temps.

 

[brokensword]

btw, if you CAN, net the one that is having fin rot problems, dab a chem on the affected part, hold a few seconds, and put them back. It should help if the fish is not too far gone. I forget what the chem to use is (just google; it might be melafix). In the old days, I used mercurachorme on my tropicals, but no doubt that one has probably been excised from ponding due to some sort of carcinogen. @WaterGardener would probably know.

 

[pineapple]

I'm a bit surprised with such a high pH your KH is that low...btw, 8.2 isn't worrying and I don't think your pH will go up much if you do the crushed coral/shells trick. Just confirm your number IS in the 80s and not the 135, which would be a lot better.

As i look at your pics, just want to clarify that the yellowy green I see is algae ON the UW surfaces. Maybe it's just the angle of sun. Btw, have you checked temps lately? I imagine you get warmer water than typical and fish can suffer more re O2 loss at higher temps.


View attachment 146404

Just tested again, KH was five drops = 89.5, good to confirm.

Water temp 21.3 C, about 70F. Hopefully the four airstones keep enough water moving to prevent O2 desaturation, unless maybe that's too much air!

I think the yellow colour is a combination of the sunlight and my camera. It's more of a green when looking with the naked eye. Some of it is on surfaces. Some of it is little floating bits that have settled near the bottom.

 

[pineapple]

btw, if you CAN, net the one that is having fin rot problems, dab a chem on the affected part, hold a few seconds, and put them back. It should help if the fish is not too far gone. I forget what the chem to use is (just google; it might be melafix). In the old days, I used mercurachorme on my tropicals, but no doubt that one has probably been excised from ponding due to some sort of carcinogen. @WaterGardener would probably know.



View attachment 146406

Actually just pulled this guy into a bucket with a small air stone and pimafix. I think probably too far gone. I've not had much luck saving fish so far!

Forgot to say a big thank you brokensword to yourself and others, taking this time to reply to me. It's very generous! If I could I would trade the summer weather here for the cold in appreciation.

Edit: pimafix, not melafix.

 

[brokensword]

Actually just pulled this guy into a bucket with a small air stone and pimafix. I think probably too far gone. I've not had much luck saving fish so far!

Forgot to say a big thank you brokensword to yourself and others, taking this time to reply to me. It's very generous! If I could I would trade the summer weather here for the cold in appreciation.

Edit: pimafix, not melafix.

you're most welcome!

Seems you may have a handle on it now, based on what you've said. I'd still investigate the KH issue because it'll help keep your params stable, which is the most important part of all this.

Now comes the fun part (I hope!) I'd take time every day, an hour if you have time, and do two things; one--count your fish. Have a definite number. It shouldn't be too hard with ~20 (right?). I used to do this with near 100, but for different reasons. I say this because IF you have fish dying and you can't find them, for sure this will upset your system. You HOPE when they die, they float and you can easily net them out. But also, by counting, you'll also do the second thing--watch ALL their behavior. They should all be moving almost all the time. They should tend to cluster up, though some will wander from the herd but those that do, they should be nibbling/searching for food. All that is normal behavior. They should not be standing still, drifting, pointing in any but a horizontal postion. And by watching, you'll see signs like fungus, fin rot, scales missing, tumors, etc. You'll get to know them all pretty well because you'll actually be scrutinizing hard, looking for anything but normal. It's when you can't find a fish/animal that a red flag goes up. Sometimes, they just are more shy but imo, most of the time when this happens, they ALL hide, not just a couple (unless it's mating season; then it's understandable).

Last question; what is your feeding habit? As long as you have the algae on all your UW surfaces, you can just stop for a bit and do the watching, unless you want to put a small amount to keep them friendly and make your job easier (watching) because fish that don't come up for food, is another red flag. But I'd be very sparse here, one pellet per fish at the most. Your soon-to-be bog filter will help in this regard (keeping water in better shape so you CAN feed a little bit).

And have patience. Test every day for a bit until nothing seems to be changing and then maybe once a week, as long as your fish are acting normal.

Good luck and keep us in the loop!

 

[addy1]

Forgot to say a big thank you brokensword to yourself and others, taking this time to reply to me. It's very generous!

We have some great members here, love to help others!

BTW @brokensword I quit trying to count years ago............. to many but I do feed now and then and take a look at them as they swarm to the surface for food. Right now everybody is buried under ice.

 

[brokensword]

We have some great members here, love to help others!

BTW @brokensword I quit trying to count years ago............. to many but I do feed now and then and take a look at them as they swarm to the surface for food. Right now everybody is buried under ice.

I've just found that counting actually makes me concentrate on various fish that might indicate problems. I'm especially observant with new fish because once acclimated and doing well, then an issue would affect them all. For instance, I have 6 koi in the basement turtle pool just because I got them very late and the pond was cold; didn't want that kind of stress. So, I have one cam pointed over the pool and every day, I try and do a head count. I HAD noticed one wasn't seen hardly at all. THIS is the one that just died, so if I'd started looking sooner and been more concerned, maybe I could have saved it (hard to say as I think these fish come IN with problems I can do nothing about, i.e. my water is what it is and if the hardness can't be adapted to them, there's not much I can do. Luckily, most are just fine after I get them).

Of course, maybe I'm just getting more OCD in my old age!

Love the new bird statue you got on that log, though; what a great idea that--putting up something to scare the heron! Guess that's why you're Super Boss, hey? And realize, it wasn't ME that gave you that title, twas Dime!!!!