Tangential Pond Returns are "worthless".

[Mucky_Waters]

No I don't actually believe TPRs are worthless, I just wrote that as the title topic to get Waterbug's attention. LOL
Actually I think they can be a useful addition to ponds with bottom drains and will help the bottom drain do it's job a little better, the same way aerated bottom drains work a little more efficiently than bottom drains without aeration.
However, I believe, and intend to prove, that bottom drains can do their job and still work very well without either aeration or TPRs.
Before I produce the evidence to back up my claim I would like to give the reasons why I put a bottom drain in my latest pond. My last pond did not have a proper bottom drain, although it did have sloped sides and bottom. When I built that pond I did not know about or understand how bottom drains worked. The pond was about 800 gal concrete pond with a 300 gal upper pond that flowed into it. The lower pond had two 1" PVC lines plumbed in the side of that very close to the bottom that were attached to a bottom pre-filter and a removable skimmer. The biggest maintenance chore of that pond was cleaning the pre-filter. Like my current pond I had a lot of plants in that old pond, and when you have a lot plants you will end up with a lot of dead and decaying plant mater in your pond, most of which finds it's way to the bottom of the pond. My pond was no different, apart from cleaning the pre-filter out I had to scoop all that gunk out of the bottom. It wasn't particularly hard to do as my pond was relatively small and i found that 99% of it accumulated right around the lowest spot in the pond, which was right where I had my PVC pipes plumbed in and the pre-filter sitting, so they kind of got in the way when I tried to scoop the stuff up. In fact if I left things go too long my pre-filter would nearly get buried by all that gunk. When I learned about bottom drains and how they function it made perfect sense to me. If I had installed one at the bottom of that pond and had it plumbed to some sort of settling chamber, or possibly a sieve, my in pond maintenance would have been reduced to almost nil. Thus my reason for installing a bottom drain in my latest pond.
So, this new pond has a bottom drain and it is doing it's job wonderfully, and yet it doesn't have any aeration, nor do I have any TPRs plumbed into the pond, how is that possible?
In my next post I will produce the evidence that shows how well the bottom drain is working and some possible explanations.
Keep in mind I am not advocating that TPRs or aerated bottom drains are "worthless", rather I think they can be a useful addition to bottom drains. What I will be proving though, is that bottom drains can and do work quite well without them.

 

[ididntdoit99]

I could be wrong here, and maybe you have seen some posts I haven't. But it sounds like you are trying to "prove" something that is general knowledge. I have never seen anyone say a bottom drain without aeration or a TPR didnt work at all
Just that they are a useful addition, just like you said at the end of you post. They will help make it work better.... not that they don't work at all without.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I could be wrong here, and maybe you have seen some posts I haven't. But it sounds like you are trying to "prove" something that is general knowledge. I have never seen anyone say a bottom drain without aeration or a TPR didnt work at all
Just that they are a useful addition, just like you said at the end of you post. They will help make it work better.... not that they don't work at all without.

You must not be reading Waterbug's posts. :lol:
I enjoy reading his post and always learn something, but he has repeatedly stated that bottom drains are "worthless" without TPRs. I disagree, but rather than disrupt any particular thread with contradictory evidence I thought I would simply start a new thread anybody could read. If Waterbug, or anybody for that mater, has any evidence or even any thoughts on the mater I would certainly welcome them here in this thread.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

OK, so here is the proof that bottom drains can, and do work, well without TPRs or aeration.
I have a bottom drain, but no aeration and no TPRs in my pond, yet my bottom drain seems to be doing it's job just fine.
The idea of a bottom drain is to suck up the gunk, fish poop, dead plant mater that accumulates on the bottom of the pond, just like it is a skimmers job to skim any floating debris off the surface of the pond. So what would constitute proof that a bottom drain is working properly? Obviously one piece of evidence might be a lack of gunk accumulating on the bottom. If you had a bottom drain and still had several inches of gunk accumulated around on the bottom of the pond that surely would be proof that it wasn't working. But a lack of stuff on bottom wouldn't necessarily be proof that it was working, what if there was no gunk to begin with? No, in order to prove that it was working you would not only have to show a lack of gunk accumulating on the bottom, but you would also have to show that there was in fact stuff being sucked up by the bottom drain. This is what I hope to show with this video.
My family went away last weekend, and just before I left I cleaned out my settling tank. The settling tank has a screen catch filter at the top where the water drains out. This top filter actually catches about 50% of the stuff that makes it to the settling tank. I would like it if more of this gunk settled to the bottom of the settling tank, but it doesn't, probably because I have too much flow going through the tank. However that little design problem doesn't have anything to do with what I'm trying to prove, and the top screen is very quick and easy to clean, so it's not something I'm too concerned about. What the video show though is the amount of stuff that is getting sucked through the bottom drain over a one week period. The gunk you see in the top screen in the settling tank is about 50% of what has been sucked through the bottom drain in that one week. If there was no bottom drain that stuff would all be sitting on the bottom of the pond, but it's not. In fact the bottom is relatively clean. There is a tiny bit of fresh fish poop and stuff on the bottom, but not very much. Now keep in mind I did not clean the bottom of the pond last week, the fact is the last, and only time, I cleaned the bottom of the pond was back on April 14 of this year, at which time I posted a thread about it. http://www.gardenpon...vac-conversion/
So after 4 1/2 months the gunk that has accumulated in the bottom of the drain is what you see in the video. In that time I have cleaned out a lot of gunk out of the settling tank, mostly from that top catch screen that you see. That screen has to be cleaned regularly or the other tanks after it will run dry and my pump will start sucking air. I usually clean it about once a week, although I did leave it for just over 2 weeks once just to see how long it would really take before the pump started sucking air.

Anyway, the whole point of this is to show that a bottom drain can, in fact, function quite well without aeration or TPRs, and that bottom drains are not "worthless" without them.

I hope that the proof I have provided is adequate enough to prove my point, however I welcome any further discussion on the mater.

The video

 

[Waterbug]

I stand corrected. I know you post on Koiphen too...you should show your proof there too. I think you'd get a few more responses.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I stand corrected. I know you post on Koiphen too...you should show your proof there too. I think you'd get a few more responses.

Spoken like a true Gentleman. Thank you
I'm sure you realize this wasn't something personal, but I was just witnessing something contrary to what you were saying and I felt a separate thread like this was the most tactful, and informative, way of showing you what I was witnessing.
And I will do as you suggested and make a post in koiphen and see what sort of feedback I get there.
As I've stated several times, I think TPRs are probably very helpful in a many ponds, but clearly they aren't always necessary for bottom drains to work effectively.

 

[Waterbug]

Wasn't personal? Which part? The repeated references to "worthless"? Casting me personally as the single proponent of TPRs in the universe? Yeah, that is personal...I just don't really care all that much. Knock yourself out. Kind of worthless to get too worked up about what goes thru other people's heads.

I do think if I took your posts out of context and said Muck_Water says "TPRs are worthless" you might see my perspective. I mean would you really want to spend hours spinning words in a flame war with someone like that? What are you going to learn from that? That it's a worthless use of time?

What wasn't personal was your "proof". This logic is used often in these types of forums..."look at my specific pond on this specific day"...proof for all ponds. Forgive me if you pointed this out in one of your posts, I didn't read it all, did watch most of the video (I love seeing ponds). Kind read a lot of these kinds of posts and don't really have the time for such logic. Nothing personal of course.

I do look forward to reading about your proof on Koiphen. That I'll read.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Waterbug it appears I have offended you, that certainly was not my intent. I'm very sorry.
I tried my best to explain why I started this thread, in response to some statements you made in other threads. That's why I made reference to you, but it wasn't personal in that I wasn't trying to bash you or belittle you in any way. In fact I stated that I enjoy reading your post very much and often learn something when I do, but in this particular case I just don't happen to agree with you about the bottom drains being worthless without TPRs. I tried my best to to tactfully show you, and others who might be reading, why, but obviously I have failed to convince you. However I will still respond to a couple of the comments you made in your last post.

First of all this is simply a discussion, taking place in a discussion board, and as such we try to interrelate to each other and try and figure out what is going thru each others heads. It's just part of what a discussion board is all about. I don't see this as a flame war at all, or at least it doesn't have to be unless someone tries to turn it into one.
Second, my proof is a little more solid than you try to make it out to be. 4 1/2 months with almost no accumulation of muck on the bottom of the pond can hardly be considered a "specific day". A "specific pond" certainly! I believe I have been pretty clear that I think TPRs are probably very useful in most ponds, my point was that they just aren't necessary in all ponds. Wait! didn't I just say that in my last post??? lol
So you see, I am also a proponent of TPRs, and you are not the only single TPR proponent in the universe.
Think of it this way, I am a proponent of bottom drains. but if I went around posting that all ponds without bottom drains are "worthless", I'm sure someone would eventually say something to me to the contrary.
Anyway, I hope we can still be friends. And anybody else reading this thread can take from it what they want.

 

[Waterbug]

No great offense taken. It's more "don't take this personally" hypocrisy that is so common that I like pointing out sometimes. It's a bit funny to me since the person doesn't seem to have clue what they're saying at any level. Sorry. Since you wanted this to be a personal debate between you and I, I feel freer to give more than I might normally.

I don't mean to doubt your proof exactly because I kind of only skimmed your posts. You may have made a great case. You started to lose me with the personal comments...not a sign of an open mind. Saying you were presenting "proof"...never a good sign...a little blowhardish for my taste. I was completely lost by it being based on one pond. I hear that aaaaaaalot....like ever other post in almost every thread...or so it seems. "Well I do this and my fish are fine" with the implication that it's somehow relevant. The discussion always seems to go the same way...bah, bah, bah and in the end they repeat "well I do this and my fish are fine" which is where we started. They confuse luck with wisdom. "Well I keep a loaded gun in the house and never had a problem." I just don't have the desire or interest to get into the details. It's pointless...sorry...worthless.

But like I said, I would be happy to read this same discussion on Koiphen. A lot of useful and good info could come out of it if some experienced pond keepers responded. In this forum I don't think there are too many people who even know or care what a TPR is. And that's appropriate imo since this is more of a water garden forum than a Koi pond forum. TPRs in a pond with lilies would just be a mess.

 

[JohnHuff]

Waterbug, please don't get mad at us! I think you've shown yourself to be a good sport and I know I've also been guilty of pulling your leg but we don't mean it in a bad way!

 

[Mucky_Waters]

No great offense taken. It's more "don't take this personally" hypocrisy that is so common that I like pointing out sometimes. It's a bit funny to me since the person doesn't seem to have clue what they're saying at any level. Sorry. Since you wanted this to be a personal debate between you and I, I feel freer to give more than I might normally.
Well I hope you realize I meant no offence, I can see how you may have taken it that way though, especially in the reply to ididntdoit99, that was meant to be funny. If you knew me personally you'd know I have a sarcastic wit. I sometimes forget that sarcastic wit doesn't convey itself in internet forums very well. Sometimes it doesn't convey to well in person either,,,, oh well. :yikesu:

I don't mean to doubt your proof exactly because I kind of only skimmed your posts. You may have made a great case. You started to lose me with the personal comments...not a sign of an open mind. Saying you were presenting "proof"...never a good sign...a little blowhardish for my taste. I was completely lost by it being based on one pond. I hear that aaaaaaalot....like ever other post in almost every thread...or so it seems. "Well I do this and my fish are fine" with the implication that it's somehow relevant. The discussion always seems to go the same way...bah, bah, bah and in the end they repeat "well I do this and my fish are fine" which is where we started. They confuse luck with wisdom. "Well I keep a loaded gun in the house and never had a problem." I just don't have the desire or interest to get into the details. It's pointless...sorry...worthless.

Well I stand by the "proof" statement. If the pond bottom had 6" of muck on the bottom I would call that proof too, proof that the bottom drain was not working by itself and that I probably needed aeration or TRPs, or something. But that's not the case. Of course this proof only shows that it works in my pond where I am trying to get it to work. It certainly doesn't mean you can get away without TPRs in every other pond.

But like I said, I would be happy to read this same discussion on Koiphen. A lot of useful and good info could come out of it if some experienced pond keepers responded. In this forum I don't think there are too many people who even know or care what a TPR is. And that's appropriate imo since this is more of a water garden forum than a Koi pond forum. TPRs in a pond with lilies would just be a mess.


I did what you asked and posted a similar thread in koiphen you can follow it here http://www.koiphen.c...583#post2198583
You are probably right that there aren't too many in this forum who know or care what a TPR is, but it is only here where I read your comments about pond drains and TRPs, so it made sense to post the thread here. I have no koi and lots of plants, so I think of my pond as more of a watergarden then a koi pond, which is another reason I posted it here.
You bring up a good point about lilies, something you'll notice I have plenty of in my pond, as well as a bunch of other plants. Those plants are on shelves, and I get a fair bit more accumulation of debris on those shelves. It's really only the bottom of the pond I am concerned about keeping clear.

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks for the link. I see you dropped the "proof" claim. Good idea.

 

[HARO]

Next week's subject: Mucky Waters will PROVE that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west! :dunno:
John

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Next week's subject: Mucky Waters will PROVE that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west! :dunno:
John

LOL
That would be impossible to prove HARO, because the best evidence I could produce is that it is only happening on this "specific" planet on any "specific day".

 

[Waterbug]

LOL. Bitterness is so funny.