Temp is dropping and goldfish are dying one by one

[poconojoe]

From your last reply describing your setup, everything seems like it was an excellent build with a lot of thought and planning put into it.
All the plumbing, valves etc. are impressive.

It's surprising and ashamed that your fish are not surviving. I hope you can get to the bottom of the problem.

 

[Lisak1]

Sorry to hear about your fish @Jkm - that's a real puzzle. I've re-read all the info you posted three or four times looking for something that's missing and I just can't see it. Water tests seem fine. Your set up is WAY over what any goldfish would require.

I'm not a water testing person myself, but you said both nitrates AND nitrites tested zero - can someone confirm that is what she should be looking for? I feel like you should be measuring some nitrates. @Mmathis - can you help with that one?

The algae fix might have been an issue, but in order to overdose an 18000 gallon pond you would have had to use in excess of 7.5 cups of product. (The instructions call for 1/4 cup per 600 gallons - 30 times that is 7.5 cups.) Do you think you used more than that?

 

[Jkm]

This is what I used - the bottle (64 oz, or 8 cups) says it treats 19,200 gallons.
I’ve assumed the pond is 18,000 to 20,000 gallons so I used the whole bottle. With AccuClear to flocculate and sink everything, massive aeration for 48+ hours, and an extra 3000 gph sump pump in a bucket full of holes stuffed with quilt batting to suck the dead algae out of the water. And a 48”, 1-1/4” pvc pipe out the top of the pump for more aeration while it filtered.

I really didn’t think it would hurt the fish. But the short-lived galvanized hardware cloth collar on the drain could have poisoned them with zinc and left them weak. This may be a mystery I will never solve, but not repeat. In the spring we will drain the pond completely to remove any toxic water, then measure the precise gallons when refilling, and follow the advice I’m getting here to make a new fresh healthy pond.

 

[MitchM]

Algaecides are never a good idea and I think that's what's causing your fish losses.
Algae protects your fish from poor water quality plus provides them a source of food.
You're correct in not wanting to use the UV clarifier - it's only purpose is to provide aesthetically pleasing water.
In your current pond setup, the only plant that will grow is algae - not a bad thing but not the most attractive.
The sooner you can get some more complex plants in there, the sooner your algae issues will balance out (next year). Algae is necessary, but as a pond owner it is your job to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

I don't think the zinc that you had in the pond was an issue, yet. Zinc is a bioaccumulator, (it will build up in the fish's body over time) but your pond hasn't been set up long enough for that to occur.

Regarding how to handle wintering your pond, the main thing you need to concern yourself with is to make sure that your pond has adequate gas exchange during periods of ice cover. There are many ways of handling that, so it depends on your particular situation which method you use. You're in a mild climate with a low bioload pond so you could get away with basic aeration. If there is a risk of plumbing items that could freeze and break, drain those lines and bring any components at risk inside.

@Mmathis asked above about your KH and GH. Those are important parameters to know because they will stabilize your PH and help you have a healthy bacterial and plant population.

 

[Jkm]

Thank you for answers to critical questions, and questions I didn’t know enough to have yet. I feel much better equipped now to start over in the spring. I appreciate all the help here and am starting to feel a little less lost.

I will begin checking the GH and KH, plan on planting heavily, and will stop being nervous about algae. Questions for next spring will include:

How many new goldfish to start with? (I want comets)
What size should they be? (I’m thinking 4”-5”)
When should I add them?
Should I use Montmorillonite clay in the pond, and how much in new water? (My water is well water from the Rathdrum Prairie Acquifer, very clean, healthy, somewhat hard, pH 7.6 - need to get GH and KH check kits)

If any of you experienced ponders were going to start fresh with a brand new pond, how would you answer these questions? Is there a specific book you would recommend as a guide to establishing a new pond, where most or all of these questions are already answered?

Thank you again, everyone.

 

[MitchM]

I think you should leave your pond as it is over the winter but add some ammonia now so the pond can establish a proper nitrifying bacteria population over the winter. You can add goldfish directly to the pond next year as soon as the two water bodies (barn tanks and outside pond) are of similar measurable parameters.
As for how much ammonia to add to the pond now, we need to be certain of the pond volume.
Can you post the pond dimensions, as best you can?

We can address you other questions later.

 

[Lisak1]

@Jkm - I honestly believe you can find all the answers you need right here on this forum starting with the advice @MitchM just gave you. There's so much experience here and people who have shared so much knowledge that you really couldn't find a better source in my opinion.

I'm with @MitchM - leave the pond set up over winter and give it time to establish an ecosystem. Get ready to start adding plants as soon as you can in the spring - with a pond your size you have room for lots! - and spend the winter reading and learning.

Comets are simple, hardy, easy going fish to care for. They are not fussy at all and will thrive in your pond. Maybe consider shubunkins too, for the colors they can add. Just another type of goldfish but so pretty in the pond!

Post some photos of your pond - we'd all love to see it... especially since we got our first snowfall in Chicago yesterday and today's high won't even get us above freezing. I could use some happy pond pictures!

 

[Tula]

The picture of the fish looks like either a fungus, or compromised slime coat? I'm not an expert, but from what I've learned over the years, those two possibilities come to mind.

If their slime coat is compromised, they are left susceptible to bacteria and parasites that are always present in the water.

Stick with @MitchM for excellent water quality info !

 

[Jkm]

Please excuse my inelegant reply posting procedures - I’m still figuring it out.
Here are pictures from this morning and dimensions - it’s definitely smaller than I thought, so I overdosed everything.

I hope my scrawls are legible. The drain is 5’ deep, and the pond slopes down to it all the way around. There are shelves all around the vary from 4” deep to 15” deep, and from 12” wide to 30” wide.

If I treat with ammonia now, I can’t drain it all and measure the volume when I refill it in the spring, can I? I will lose any bacteria that might be establishing themselves in the meantime...

Actual pictures (all the flagstone around the edge is still loose, to be finished in the spring):

So, what do you estimate the volume to be? And what kind of ammonia do I use? I have a 1 oz bottle of aquarium ammonia; I’d guess it to be the same stuff in a larger quantity. From Amazon?

The skimmer, waterfall, and secondary outlet are all still running, and this morning the temperature was 39 degrees at the drain and the surface.

 

[MitchM]

Thank you for that information.
I would estimate your pond to be about 10,000 gallons. I used the dimensions of 25 foot circle and average 3 feet deep. I used this calculator: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Ponds/PondRound.htm

Given your pond volume, you could add 2 liters (1/2 gallon) of 5% ammonia to achieve a 3 ppm ammonia concentration.
I used this calculator, you could try others.
http://spec-tanks.com/ammonia-calculator-aquariums/
By the time spring comes around, the nitrifying bacteria population should be established and your pond safe for fish.
Algae growth plus any plants you add will consume any impurities in the water that are present.

You only need regular grocery store ammonia with no added scent or foaming agents. I can buy 5% ammonia here for about $2 per liter.
You'll probably be fine just running an aerator and turning off everything else plus protecting the skimmer and plumbing from freezing damage.
Someone that lives closer to you could advise you better for winter protection of plumbing components.
For me, no plumbing is safe but you're in a milder climate.

 

[Jkm]

Thank you so much!
So, without fish in it this winter I don’t need to worry about the thermoclines; would you advise me to run the bottom drain aerator, or just a shallow aerator at one end like I would if there were fish in it?

And just distribute the ammonia all around the pond? That sounds so easy

It’s ironic that for decades I had goldfish in my horse water tanks and never thought about them other than to feed them (which they mostly ignored - I know now that they weren’t hungry). No filters or pumps, just natural water changes from the horses drinking and the water being refilled. And they survived and grew and didn’t die. Hmmm... do less. That must be the trick.

So, next question:
Come spring how many fish should I get? I’m thinking 4”-5” comets/shubunkins. Should I start with just a half dozen and get more as the ecosystem gets established? Or start with more and let them and the new plants and the algae all get established together?

 

[Tula]

I think you mentioned you have a Savio skimmer. I'm in zone 6 and do nothing to my Savio skimmer and I leave a pump submerged in it. I've been doing this for at least5-8 years without problem. I had a different type of skimmer prior to my Savio and also did nothing, so 13-14 winters without issue. Hope this helps.

 

[MitchM]

Thank you so much!
So, without fish in it this winter I don’t need to worry about the thermoclines; would you advise me to run the bottom drain aerator, or just a shallow aerator at one end like I would if there were fish in it?

And just distribute the ammonia all around the pond? That sounds so easy

It’s ironic that for decades I had goldfish in my horse water tanks and never thought about them other than to feed them (which they mostly ignored - I know now that they weren’t hungry). No filters or pumps, just natural water changes from the horses drinking and the water being refilled. And they survived and grew and didn’t die. Hmmm... do less. That must be the trick.

So, next question:
Come spring how many fish should I get? I’m thinking 4”-5” comets/shubunkins. Should I start with just a half dozen and get more as the ecosystem gets established? Or start with more and let them and the new plants and the algae all get established together?

Your pond is not deep enough to have thermoclines be a factor. Plus with the slightest circulation, the temperature will be equalized throughout the water column anyways.
Without any fish, you can pour the ammonia in one spot and let the water circulation take care of distribution.

For fish stocking in the spring, I would suggest 6 shubunkins plus a dozen rosy red minnows. The shubunkins for larger show fish and the minnows for their fast reproduction rate which also will provide food for other pond inhabitants. Once your pond balances out, I think you'll have about 1000 schooling minnows that spawn year round, are fun to watch and will take care of any mosquito problems. Minnows are also detritus eaters so they will help keep the pond clean.
Most important - no feeding your pond once you get the fish in there.
You want a balanced pond that takes care of itself as much as possible.
Let us know how the pond is doing in the spring and we can go over that again.
You'll need some lilies that will provide a sense of security for the fish. If you have herons, you'll need a method of protecting the pond fish from them.

 

[Jkm]

Hi, Tula,
So do you leave the skimmer running? Or just leave it with water in it?
Mine doesn’t have a pump in it - it’s plumbed so the pump draws water through it and through the big filter. The winterization instructions say to drain the pond level to below the skimmer door, and drain the filter (which means nothing runs).

So, Mitch, are you saying the whole pond will be super cold anyway, so it’s okay to use the big aerator in the drain?

And thank you for the fish suggestions - I hadn’t considered minnows. What a great idea!

 

[MitchM]

...

So, Mitch, are you saying the whole pond will be super cold anyway, so it’s okay to use the big aerator in the drain?
...!

Use only enough aeration to keep a hole open in the ice.
I've used strong aeration during the winter and have found that it winds up cooling off the whole pond which only results in an overall colder pond with thicker ice.
Gas exchange should be your main concern. A pond breather would be your most economical choice.
Here's the pond breather I'm talking about:
https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/531773-allied-precision-pond-breather.html

A lot of us on this forum use it.