Water quality question?

[capewind]

This could be a water quality question, or possibly more spawning, or ???... Dont know for sure, so going to ask;-)

About once a week (for the last month or so), we have a some foam congested to a small area.

On Monday, I spotted foam again by the larger waterfall, moved a few water hyacinths, and found lots of eggs again:-( (Finally caught all the babies out there, so here we go again).

Today, totally the other end of the pond (by about 18'), more foam at the base of the little waterfall... Hard to get there for a close inspection... Would this foam be from another spawning, or is there something else that can add protein (my guess) to the water??? There IS green algae on the rocks of this waterfall, as the water is just a trickle but the water is crystal clear (at least to 4' and then the fish get a little blurry to look at deeper) ...

Just tested the water (again)... Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all at zero, and PH at 7.6

With the old pond (1800 gallons), the fish didnt spawn often, so if we found foam, we did find eggs. The new pond (6500 gallons fed from a 2500 gallon bog with just a Laguna 5000 filter falls for now, being run by an 8,000 gph pump that has been t'd off a separate line for the UV and small waterfall) and it seems like a never ending event with foam. Just want to be sure that nothing else could be causing it.

 

[sissy]

doc's maybe .I get it once in awhile in little tiny spots by the waterfall and a little while later it is gone .I usually see mine every once in awhile in the morning and look around and sure enough frog visited and layed eggs and scoop them out ,I have enough frogs

 

[capewind]

uggg.... I sure hope there are no frog eggs... now to do a websearch to see what those look like. Havent seen any frogs in a few days... aka we keep evicting them LOL.

 

[sissy]

I do the same thing I take all the frog eggs down to the creek across the street from my home .They usually lay them in strings .I am now trying to catch a toad with no success

 

[Waterbug]

The DOC acronym has several definitions like dissolved organic compounds or dissolved organic carbon, etc. To keep it simple it is just tiny bits of decomposed organic matter. It acts just like soap and can cause foam when the DOC level reaches a certain point and there's agitation like a falls or stream. The more agitation the lower the level of DOC is needed to produce foam. Spawning can add to the DOC level in a pond but is not the only source or even the largest source. However it cause a sudden increase in DOC and trigger foam.

Protein is only one possible DOC, there are many others. In aquariums protein is the primary source of DOC so they use a filter they sometimes call a Protein Skimmer. In other contexts a more proper name might be a Foam Fractionator. Same device.

The term DOC is just a slice of the entire decay timeline. A leaf dies, decomposes and breaks up into small pieces, those pieces continue to decay and break up into smaller pieces, etc., until it's decayed into molecules like carbon, nitrogen, etc. The part of that timeline where the bits are tiny but before they're elements the bits are called DOC. Bits larger that DOC are called POC (particulate organic carbon). The distinction have certain properties like causing foam.

DOC particles are about 200 to 1000 times smaller than a bacteria. So you can have high DOC levels in what appears to be very clear water.

Foam can disappear on it's own as these tiny bits decompose into elements. The foam can reappear later as more organic matter decomposes into the DOC range.

In high fish load type ponds low DOC levels are desired because the decomposition uses O2 which could otherwise be used by fish. In water gardens it's normally the foam that isn't desired. DOC also increases acid and lowers pH buffering and can increase risk of pH crashes.

Removing the foam removes DOC. So you can net it off to speed up the process of DOC removal. Or you can build a Foam Fractionator which is pretty easy and cheap. There are many examples of DIY Foam Fractionators but keep in mind that if you're just wanting to keep DOC levels below foam causing you won't need the 10' tall, air blower super duper filters. The simple water fall inside a pipe with a port for the foam to escape is enough. My personal fav is building a catch basin under the falls so you never have foam on the surface of the pond and foam is contained inside the catch basin.

Removing organic matter with a vacuum, net, skimmer, bottom drain, etc., can reduce future high DOC levels.

 

[capewind]

Didnt find any strings, slime or black and white eggs... so really hoping it isnt frog related. Here's a pic of the last kid who was evicted LOL.

 

[capewind]

Thanks Waterbug... you were speaking a bit over my head (husband deals with all the filtration things) but since you used the word protein skimmer, that was part I understood We used to have a 180 gallon tank set up for marine fish and inverts and remember all the foam/protein that used to bubble out of the protein skimmer, that's why I was thinking protein

Will keep watching the PH level, but it has been consistent at 7.6

In the pond itself, there is no obvious debris that could be scooped out. The bog on the other hand only has about 2 yards of pea type gravel in it so far (needs another 6 yards) and there is about 1/4" of brown algae (or similar item) growing on the liner there.

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks Waterbug... you were speaking a bit over my head (husband deals with all the filtration things) but since you used the word protein skimmer, that was part I understood

Sorry. I write these posts more for myself because I like thinking about ponds...call it day dreaming. If a person is interested the terms can be looked up and studied. That's really the only way to learn, forums are limited in that way.

In the pond itself, there is no obvious debris that could be scooped out. The bog on the other hand only has about 2 yards of pea type gravel in it so far (needs another 6 yards) and there is about 1/4" of brown algae (or similar item) growing on the liner there.

Bogs are an excellent source of DOCs. Organic matter settles in them, decomposes and then work their way back into the pond as DOC.

 

[capewind]

Oh dont apologize! Based on "general knowledge" you gave me enough info that I could comprehend the jist of what you were saying, so will research it more for better understanding.

I am now a bit confused with the DOCs as I thought bogs were GOOD. I know we need to get the rest of the gravel into the bog, and need a lot more plants, but now I need to connect how bogs, DOCs and even the fish interact to make sure we maintain good water quality. Again, this is all hubby's department. I feed the fish and play with plants LOL.

 

[crsublette]

now I need to connect how bogs, DOCs and even the fish interact to make sure we maintain good water quality. Again, this is all hubby's department.

I wouldn't worry too much.

Most concerns I have read about DOCs have been regarding aesthetics.

DOCs do deplete O2, but this is easily fixed building a foam phractionator and/or simply by adding some fountains or air diffusors to help pull the less oxygenated water from the bottom to the top of the pond so the atmospheric pressure can add more O2.

If ya are still concerned, then just keep an eye on your pH to make sure it stays above 7.4ish.

All ponds, even my dinkly little water feature, will have some small foam accrued. Ya just need to worry if it becomes quite large or extremely unpleasant to look at.

There are many bog owners here that have maintained good water quality. I wouldn't worry too much ... unless, for that big of a pond, what's your fish population like, do ya have 250 koi that are each near 12 inches long and do ya feed your fish 5~7 times a day ??

 

[capewind]

LOL... the whole point of building the bog was for natural filtration

As to the fish count, ya, we have a few. I am guessing about 45-50. About a dozen of them are comets/shubunkins (6-10"), one 12" feeder goldfish that we acquired LOL, and the rest are koi. Two tiny guys around 5-6", 11 that are 16-24" and I would guess the rest are an average of 10"... I should do the math to see where we are at population wise;-)

I dont know about dead spots in all spots, but the flow looks pretty consistent at the surface level (aka judging by where the floating plants end up even when there is no wind). The deep end is 5' but the larger water fall is there too... small water fall at the opposite end, and set up for a bigger water fall (next years larger pond).

As to feeding... ummm... only feed twice a day, but they ARE getting fat LOL.

 

[Waterbug]

I am now a bit confused with the DOCs as I thought bogs were GOOD. I know we need to get the rest of the gravel into the bog, and need a lot more plants, but now I need to connect how bogs, DOCs and even the fish interact to make sure we maintain good water quality.

There's not much about ponds that are GOOD or BAD. Most things have pluses and minuses.

A high end Koi keeper would consider a bog to be a terrible thing. Plants also would be terrible. They want a lot of big healthy fish and anything that doesn't help that is not desired. Plants remove nitrates but these keepers are already doing large water changes for other reasons so nitrates aren't a problem so the plants don't help them. Plants shed organic matter which they would have to remove. So there's no upside for them.

Bogs collect waste and degrade water quality. In a Koi pond that's a negative. They have other ways to remove waste. These pond keepers spend a lot of time designing the building of the pond, researching the best practices, and invest a lot of time and money building the pond so these issues are reduced.

Water gardens on the other hand are normally built with really very little understanding of ponds, mostly just a few myths that are easier to understand. The emphasis is more on how inexpensively can it be built, how quickly and how easily and with little research. Learning about ponds is not really part of the water gardening hobby in general. In this case a bog is a good filter because it's easy to understand, cheap, easy to build. Most water gardens don't have any decent mechanical filtration so a bog is a huge improvement over nothing. But they're not perfect. They trap lots of suspended particles making the water clearer, but that matter remains in the pond and decomposes. Not normally a big problem in a water garden. Water gardens can have poor water quality compared to a high end koi pond but still fulfil all the owner's requirements.

Foam for example is pretty easy to deal with when it appears. It is easier to handle when initially building the pond, but who's got time for that? I want water and fish tomorrow!

It all comes down to the type of pond one wants and how one wants to enjoy the hobby.

 

[addy1]

I am now a bit confused with the DOCs as I thought bogs were GOOD. I know we need to get the rest of the gravel into the bog, and need a lot more plants, but now I need to connect how bogs, DOCs and even the fish interact to make sure we maintain good water quality. Again, this is all hubby's department. I feed the fish and play with plants LOL.

My pond/ water garden does wonderfully with its bog. I disagree with you wb I did a tremendous amount of research, of course from the internet, readings, articles, monster fish keeping sites, i.e. huge koi. Bogs where discussed extensively and well thought of. But that again is just my research and just my opinion.
And I just have a water garden, so knowledge/understanding of ponds is not a key factor as stated below. Maybe if I had koi my pond would count. A filter would have been a lot easier to build than this bog, but then again a filter would have taken a lot more maintenance then I put into my pond.

I have never have foam, perfect water tests. No green water, no string algae.

Went to net the bottom, thinking it was about time, there was nothing to net. I have not cleaned the pond since it was started up in march. So guess all the decomposing plant matter is just disappearing. Hardly ever clean the leaf basket, even stuck in a retro fit bottom drain with air, nothing being sucked up except some pea gravel from the bottom.

Water gardens on the other hand are normally built with really very little understanding of ponds, mostly just a few myths that are easier to understand. The emphasis is more on how inexpensively can it be built, how quickly and how easily and with little research. Learning about ponds is not really part of the water gardening hobby in general. In this case a bog is a good filter because it's easy to understand, cheap, easy to build. Most water gardens don't have any decent mechanical filtration so a bog is a huge improvement over nothing. But they're not perfect. They trap lots of suspended particles making the water clearer, but that matter remains in the pond and decomposes. Not normally a big problem in a water garden. Water gardens can have poor water quality compared to a high end koi pond but still fulfil all the owner's requirements.

Foam for example is pretty easy to deal with when it appears. It is easier to handle when initially building the pond, but who's got time for that? I want water and fish tomorrow!

 

[crsublette]

As with anything, there are purists with everything. Capewind, if ya were to ask these guys for advice, then prepare your self since there is zero grey area with any of them, which is not very helpful unless you want to be involved into the hobby to that extent.

LOL... the whole point of building the bog was for natural filtration

As to the fish count, ya, we have a few. I am guessing about 45-50. About a dozen of them are comets/shubunkins (6-10"), one 12" feeder goldfish that we acquired LOL, and the rest are koi. Two tiny guys around 5-6", 11 that are 16-24" and I would guess the rest are an average of 10"... I should do the math to see where we are at population wise;-)

As to feeding... ummm... only feed twice a day, but they ARE getting fat LOL.

According to Dr. Johnson's .5 in per 10 gallon rule of thumb, that is a very light fish load. You'll get all sorts of opinions on this though. I think a bog will work fine for ya ... until your fish reproduces to double that population. Ya should think about some natural population controls or look into making a good bio-filter and mechanical filters or feed them less.

Thing is ... fish grow according to the water quality of their environment. When there is an imbalance, then Mother Nature will do her job to naturally cull the fish to match their environment. This is why better bio-filters and mechanical filters are used, to increase the ecosystem by maintaining better water quality from higher fish population waste.

A bog will be fine for ya, but they're not as efficient as all of the man made filter. Nature is very slow and there are consequences; Mother Nature can become very fickle. Man made filters build upon nature's mechanics in attempt to reduce all, or most, of the negative consequences.

My pond/ water garden does wonderfully with its bog. I disagree with you wb I did a tremendous amount of research, of course from the internet, readings, articles, monster fish keeping sites, i.e. huge koi. Bogs where discussed extensively and well thought of. But that again is just my research and just my opinion.

Have ya kept any of that research? After all that work, I would have kept some documentation for future reference. I would love to read it. Everything I have read has been in regards to the usual watergarden person who enjoys it, who might sell a few koi out of them, instead of big koi farm businesses. I know they're out there, I just haven't come across them since I am still learning all sorts of stuff.

 

[capewind]

Interesting topics to research more (just because I am a research junkie). The foam that was out there this morning was totally gone when I fed the fish about 6 pm. I wanted volume, as I do not want to worry about a lot of maintenance. I also dont really believe in water changes unless there is a problem. The quarantine pond in the basement does need them (way over populated), and will guess that requires about 300 gallons each month in total. The new water from that pond does come from the outside pond, but for a 9000 gallon total water capacity (connected pond and bog), would you really call 300 gallons of fresh water a water change? Maybe a couple of hundred gallons more lost in evaporation and drinking plants?

If it is DOCs causing the foam, it doesnt sound like it is a big deal, and will just get over that happening The fish seem happy and arent gasping at the waterfalls for air, so gonna guess that is okay too. I probably should do a phosphate test but to be honest, it is so rare that we do that one, I dont know where it even is LOL.