Woke up to DEAD koi's. 1 still alive. PH crash.

[ShawnC]

What are you using to test your water? Some of your readings seem unlikely.

The API Master Kit

 

[sissy]

I use that and believe it or not I some how put the wrong drop combo together a couple of weeks ago .Scared myself and did a second test and then realized I messed up .Never did that before but things happen i guess .How is your other fish doing and have you tested again .

 

[ShawnC]

If your pH is 5 in the morning and 9 in the evening, then this is allowed to happen by algae or underwater plants plus very low KH.


I think what killed your fish was....

If your ammonia is 2 and your pH raised to 9 in the evening, then most likely the ammonia burned your koi's gills and killed them. Ammonia becomes extremely toxic at higher pHs. It is best to have zero Ammonia.

An ammonia of 2 tells me your bio-filter is failing. Even during the transition between Winter and Spring, the ammonia should not shoot up this high if your bio-filter was built to perform for your pond.

I think the water changes were done too late to save them. I have never heard of the fish recuperating after being burned like this with this much ammonia at a high pH. The fish were probably going to die anyways. Unless, you are using city water which has chlorine or chloramines, then you did not use a dechlorinator, and this possibly killed the fish.



pH crashes are essentially caused by low or zero KH. For advanced hobbyiests, a pond can have a low or zero KH and not suffer from a pH crash, but this involves more maintenance and more water changes and an advance understanding of water chemistry.

Fish only care about a stable pH. Stable pH is a healthy pH. The pH can be 6.5 and still be "ok" or the pH can be 9.0 and still be "ok" as long as the pH is stable. However, a pH below 5.5 can kill koi by burning their gills and cause acidosis, a pH above 10 can kill koi by interfering with the koi's blood and causing alkalosis.

KH is the fuel consumed by your bio-filtration and rain eats KH as well and KH creates a stable pH. A stable pH is a pH that does not "swing", that is change more than .2 or .4 or whatever within 24 hours. Again, healthy fish want a stable pH.

When testing and observing PH, you are being reactive. Treating the problem after it has happened.

When testing and observing KH, you are being proactive. Treating the problem before it has happened.

Shawn, get a KH test kit. You simply put pond water in a vial, count the drops of test solution you put in the water, shake vial after each solution drop... continue this process until the vial's water just noticeably changes color. If the vial's water color noticeably change after one drop of solution, then this means either your KH is zero or your KH is 1 degree (or 17.9ppm).

To ensure a stable pH, the KH must be anywhere between 5 drops (or 90ppm) and 11 drops (or 200ppm). You can make KH go much higher than 11 drops without harming your fish. Quick side note: baking soda will never, chemically impossible to, cause your pH to go above 8.3. If your pH does goes above 8.3, then this is due to other variables and a lack of calcium.

To know more on how to properly raise your KH with baking soda and how to raise your calcium, then read the forum thread, understanding API water test results.

If you really want to learn more about pH, then read the forum thread, High pH level.



1) 2 cups of baking soda in a 1800gallon pond would have only increased your KH by 2.6 drops (or 47ppm). This is not enough to stabilize the pH. For 1800gallon pond, to raise the KH from 0 to 5 drops, then you would need 1.8 pounds (or 30 ounces) of baking soda.

There are two baking soda calculators I enjoy using.

CYNKOI - Alkalinity (KH) calculator - Calculates pounds, ounces, and grams of baking soda for X amount of water gallons.

Buffering capacity and pH - Calculates teaspoons of baking soda for X amount of water gallons and it attempts to calculate the potential pH change from adding the baking soda.

2) Is this a water temperature change of 80 degrees to 40 degrees?? Big water temperature swings can harm koi.

Thanks charles errr ummm mr coyote for the great info. I've ordered the KH test along with some other things.

I agree that my KH must have been low. I lack anything that would fuel it so I'm going to head to the store get the 50 pound bag of oyster shell from tracker supply.

I'll guess i'll add the oyster shell in right between my mechanical filter and bio filter. Should i add charcoal to or will the oyster shell suffice?

As for my bio filter i'll buy more bio balls i guess... I figured that 25gallons worth of media was cutting it. Guess I'll fill up the rest of my 55g barrel.

 

[sissy]

I have both in my filters 3 lbs each and I buy acurel charcoal in the bag from pet mountain .com and I buy at least 10 bags so I have it on hand at all times .I put it in dollars store laundry bags
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[crsublette]

1) Thanks charles errr ummm mr coyote for the great info. I've ordered the KH test along with some other things.

2) I agree that my KH must have been low. I lack anything that would fuel it so I'm going to head to the store get the 50 pound bag of oyster shell from tracker supply.

I'll guess i'll add the oyster shell in right between my mechanical filter and bio filter. 3) Should i add charcoal to or will the oyster shell suffice?

4) As for my bio filter i'll buy more bio balls i guess... I figured that 25gallons worth of media was cutting it. Guess I'll fill up the rest of my 55g barrel.

Yep, that's a good test kit.


1) No problem man. :beerchug:

2) Oyster shells might do the trick for ya to help you maintain a KH level. For oyster shells to dissolve in the water, it takes carbonic acid (which is carbon dioxide dissolved in the water) to dissolve the oyster shells. This carbonic acid is naturally create by algae, aquatic plants, and other stuff in the water. In a lower pH below 8, there will be more carbonic acid present in the water to dissolve the oyster shells. Once your pH reaches around above 8, then oyster shells will not do much for you until the pH lowers again.

In case of emergencies or to prepare your self before a big rain flood, baking soda is used since it more readily dissolves into the water. Just so the pH change from the baking soda does not stress your fish, I would raise the KH about 2 drops every 24 hours until it gets up to at least 11 drops. For a 1800 gallon pond, that's about 12 ounces (little less than 2 cups) of baking soda; so, before a big rain, do this every 24 hours until your KH registers at least 11 drops.

It would be a good idea to test your source water's KH as well. If your source water's KH is high enough, then you might only have to do water changes to raise your pond's KH to the level of your source water.

Difference between calcium carbonate products such as Oyster shells and a sodium bicarbonate product like baking soda is the dissolving point. When you do water changes, you might be removing KH, but, since oyster shells are very slow to dissolve, you will still have the oyster shells in your water to release more KH.

Personally, I only use baking soda whenever my pH starts to swing or before a big rain storm.

Diurnal pH swings, that is pH changes between dawn and dusk, are caused by addition and removal of carbon dioxide by algae and other aquatic plants in low KH water. Once you get your KH up to 11, your pH will be around 8.4 and, at this high of a pH, the pH "locks" the carbon dioxide so that it no longer changes your pH to go up. IF you do see your pH go up to 9 and your KH is at 11 drops, then this is due to an accumulation of carbonates (CO32-) and a lack of calcium. To fix this, simply add a product called calcium chloride flakes, dissolve about half a pound in a 5 gallon bucket, then pour it around the parameter of your pond, wait 24 hours, then test the pH again. A water change might be all that is needed to restore the calcium in your water.



3) Activated charcoal will absorb the excess toxins and tannins from the water. I have not used the stuff, but I have never heard of it helping to raise your KH.


4) Yep, you might just need more bio-balls. Also, if you notice any gunk or debris in the bio-filter, just stir up the bio-balls with a paddle or stick a bit or something and then flush the barrel once a week or so. If you can put an aquarium air diffuser in the bottom of it, then this will make a difference as well.

With a 55 gallon barrel and your present bio-bals, you could convert it into a shower tower by simply making a spray bar on top, let it shower down on the bio-balls, and then let the water exit at the bottom of the barrel. Example: 55g barrel shower with phoam phraxionator. In this example thread, you don't need to build the phoam phraxionator function, but it would not hurt if you had one. Phoam phraxionator (another way of calling a protein skimmer in the aquarium hobby) simply allows the dissolve organic particulates, which is the foam, to exit before it enters your pond water.