Another newbie seeking construction advice

[stavo]

@brokensword Thanks for the suggestions. Although I'm going to have to reread that a few times to fully grasp it.

 

[stavo]

Why not just the bog feeding the waterfall? I mean, you can have more than one waterfall on a pond, I just don't know about the water coming from two different directions. Won't it just whirlpool in the middle? Is the left side still meant to be a stream?

So you think it would whirlpool?

The left side was meant to be a stream, yes, but I'm kind of regretting digging it now based on previous conversation in this thread. Maybe I'm not grasping your suggestion of a negative edge - would you mind elaborating? I had wanted water to flow from the waterfall, through the main pond, and then empty through the stream to some kind of system, skimmer or otherwise, at the end of the stream, but that didn't seem to resonate here so I started looking for an alternate use for the stream. Also, I'm not sure what would prevent the fish from all ending up in the end of my stream in my original plan.

 

[Lisak1]

So a negative edge would work with a stream. You simply build an edge that waterfalls off into a pit or underground water storage system. @GBBUDD refers to his a cistern. The edge needs to be just slightly lower than the rest of the pond so the water will flow out. We have a negative edge on our pond - much prefer it to a skimmer, but the skimming action is identical. Everything just floats right out of the pond where we can scoop it out from the gravel pit. (That sounds not so pretty, but it really is!)

When we were planning this, everyone told us "but your fish will swim right out!" They don't. They seem to have a sense the edge spells danger. They swim right up to it, and then swim away. We will occasionally lose one over the edge during spawning and we have had sick fish go over the edge when they become to weak to swim away. But normally the healthy fish stay in the pond.

Here's a picture of our negative edge. That gravel area that you see plus about four feet on either side is all underground water storage. We can hold 1000 gallons underground. Those hostas are planted right in the gravel - they get huge by the end of the summer.

 

[GBBUDD]

Love your pond and thats' probably the best shot i have seen of it in it's entirety. If you had to do it again would you have the pond come up to the edge of the patio and off set the negative edge to one side?

 

[GBBUDD]

Making the design a horse shoe helps to remove the dead pots of the previous using just the one skimmer or negative edge . but it makes it difficult to make the negative edge on the side of the pond where your plumbing lines are on your design. . With a negative edge look at it as a slightly lower side where the water will escape the perimeter of the pond the wider it is and the shallower it is the more efficient it will work and the deeper it is the less likely you will loose fish look at it as a water fall set back from the edge of the pond. it literally can be any distance from the pond giving it a 24" wide shelf before it drops will make the construction easier as you wont have to worry so much about the sides giving way i did not do as i am talking i Used large boulders and wished i had done a 24" wide berm before it came up to the drop and the boulders. constructing the damn per say and the 18" drop where i am holding back a 35 foot long area. meant there was going to be some serious pressures to hold back . lessons learned.
Like @Lisak1 has in her pond the entire area from the blue pot to the two green bushes/ hostas toward the pond is the entire cistern area so as it may start to clog the water will rise up over the clog and flow through just past the clog into the cistern this can go on and one for quite some time . if she went on vacation for a couple weeks i doubt water over flowing or clogging at this area "unlike a skimmer" she won't have any worries Thats why placing it to one end of your shape design is easier to build and make look natural .
A simple design yet efficient would be like this

A. is your stream it can be made to have as much water as you want depending how wide and deep the opening is in the bog .
B. can be the larger water fall as the opening is larger and or deeper.
c. is a return jet that would have a ball valve on it so you can control how much water is discharged out the jet. and how much goes to the bog . oh and yes you'll want a ball balve on the line that goes to the bog you only need the one line depending on how many gph you use will determin the size of the pipes. and you don't need to cut the rubber in order to put the jet in the pond but you'll want a vacuum breaker whether its a hole just below the surface , a vacuum breaker . or a check valve
D. Is the water chamber negative edge cistern what ever way you decide to go.
E. oh and your arrows infront of d would be turned toward D ... MY letters
B.

 

[Lisak1]

Love your pond and thats' probably the best shot i have seen of it in it's entirety. If you had to do it again would you have the pond come up to the edge of the patio and off set the negative edge to one side?

We definitely considered it, but from the patio it's also nice to see that small waterfall over the edge. We can sit and watch the fish swim right up the edge and often see a big frog sit right on the edge with the water flowing all around. Plus we're a little tight on space to walk around the pond, so the path was kind of a priority on both sides. This photo makes it look like we have a lot more room to maneuver than we actually do. This is early May - by mid-June when all the bushes and plants start to fill in, it's a jungle back there!

 

[Lisak1]

Just a few weeks later:

 

[GBBUDD]

I have some elephant ear hostas i should give it a try in the bog. Surprised your not planning bigger POND . #2

 

[stavo]

@Lisak1

So a negative edge would work with a stream. You simply build an edge that waterfalls off into a pit or underground water storage system. @GBBUDD refers to his a cistern. The edge needs to be just slightly lower than the rest of the pond so the water will flow out. We have a negative edge on our pond - much prefer it to a skimmer, but the skimming action is identical. Everything just floats right out of the pond where we can scoop it out from the gravel pit. (That sounds not so pretty, but it really is!)

When we were planning this, everyone told us "but your fish will swim right out!" They don't. They seem to have a sense the edge spells danger. They swim right up to it, and then swim away. We will occasionally lose one over the edge during spawning and we have had sick fish go over the edge when they become to weak to swim away. But normally the healthy fish stay in the pond.

Here's a picture of our negative edge. That gravel area that you see plus about four feet on either side is all underground water storage. We can hold 1000 gallons underground. Those hostas are planted right in the gravel - they get huge by the end of the summer.

View attachment 135949

Lisa, that is so helpful. And if I haven't told you previously, I love your water garden. Mind if I ask a few new questions now that I see your negative edge?

1. Is this the only place from which water leaves your pond? If no, how does this water cycle back into the pond?
2. When you say underground storage, do you actually have some kind of container that extra water goes in and out of, or is it simply a lined pit covered with gravel? Do I have to have underground storage, or is a gravel filled pit sufficient?
3. Is that your bog filter up beyond your waterfall? If so, from where is the water coming that you pump into it?
4. Where is the actual pump for your negative edge?
5. In my layout, do you think I could get by with one pump (I guess in the negative edge), and the flow of water basically following a large circle such as POND --> STREAM --> NEG EDGE --> BOG FILTER --> WATERFALL --> POND? Would the fish waste that I'd want for the plants in my bog actually make it through the gravel in the negative edge to get pumped up into the bog?

 

[stavo]

@Lisak1

Making the design a horse shoe helps to remove the dead pots of the previous using just the one skimmer or negative edge . but it makes it difficult to make the negative edge on the side of the pond where your plumbing lines are on your design. . With a negative edge look at it as a slightly lower side where the water will escape the perimeter of the pond the wider it is and the shallower it is the more efficient it will work and the deeper it is the less likely you will loose fish look at it as a water fall set back from the edge of the pond. it literally can be any distance from the pond giving it a 24" wide shelf before it drops will make the construction easier as you wont have to worry so much about the sides giving way i did not do as i am talking i Used large boulders and wished i had done a 24" wide berm before it came up to the drop and the boulders. constructing the damn per say and the 18" drop where i am holding back a 35 foot long area. meant there was going to be some serious pressures to hold back . lessons learned.
Like @Lisak1 has in her pond the entire area from the blue pot to the two green bushes/ hostas toward the pond is the entire cistern area so as it may start to clog the water will rise up over the clog and flow through just past the clog into the cistern this can go on and one for quite some time . if she went on vacation for a couple weeks i doubt water over flowing or clogging at this area "unlike a skimmer" she won't have any worries Thats why placing it to one end of your shape design is easier to build and make look natural .
A simple design yet efficient would be like this

A. is your stream it can be made to have as much water as you want depending how wide and deep the opening is in the bog .
B. can be the larger water fall as the opening is larger and or deeper.
c. is a return jet that would have a ball valve on it so you can control how much water is discharged out the jet. and how much goes to the bog . oh and yes you'll want a ball balve on the line that goes to the bog you only need the one line depending on how many gph you use will determin the size of the pipes. and you don't need to cut the rubber in order to put the jet in the pond but you'll want a vacuum breaker whether its a hole just below the surface , a vacuum breaker . or a check valve
D. Is the water chamber negative edge cistern what ever way you decide to go.
E. oh and your arrows infront of d would be turned toward D ... MY letters
B.View attachment 135950

In this design, would there be whirlpools where the water from A and B meet? Does a return jet require cutting into the liner or is it piped from inside the pond? Also, would your design mean I don't have pumps at my B and C, or would I have those two pumps plus two in your point D?

 

[GBBUDD]

Pumps would be in what is referred to as a pump vault Within D its exactly what lisa has shown. all you see on the surface is stone. And she went as far as to put a couple plants in the splash zone so they never need watering but grow like weeds.
The advantage to the design I showed is where the two currents meet is where the draw is from the Negative edge / skimmer . Some folks prefer this area to be an intake bay where the pumps are in the pond and pull to one area. To me I want the debris pulled out of the pond and when its time to remove any debris I dont want it being disturbed and adding the very fine material into the water in the pond but if it is disturbed to go right to the bog filter that you get with the negative edge

 

[Lisak1]

1. Yes.
2. It's a pit that's lined with 45 mil EPDM and filled with Aquablox. There's a pump vault and centipede incorporated in the design - somewhat of a "reverse bog". The only pump for the pond lives in that vault.
3. Yup. The water is pumped out of the rain exchange, runs underground just to the right of the flagstone path you see in the photo, takes a hard right at the end of the pond and runs along that back edge where it then goes up 90 degrees to the raised garden. Then it drops back down 90 degrees to the bottom of the bog. Water gets pumped up through the bog where it feeds the waterfall.
4. See #1. Only one pump on this pond - currently anyway! I have plans for a water feature in the bog...
5. Yes. The "waste" that you're looking for to feed your plants will be in the water - you aren't really looking to pump solid waste through your bog. I always say the water we pump to our bog is "clean" - in other words, free from any solid debris, but still full of lots of nutrients to feed the plants. Skimming the solids and organics out before the bog is imperative, unless you enjoy digging out gravel to clear out clogs!

 

[poconojoe]

Concerning leaves:
I have a lot of trees which equates to a lot of leaves.
I don't have any intake bay, skimmer, etc. I had a skimmer a while back, it kept clogging and debris was jamming the pump.
I use a large bag type pool net on a long pole to manually capture leaves during the Spring and Summer. I cover the pond in the fall with nylon pond netting. It stays covered until Spring.

The point is that, to me, it's no big deal scooping a few leaves now and then.

 

[stavo]

Concerning leaves:
I have a lot of trees which equates to a lot of leaves.
I don't have any intake bay, skimmer, etc. I had a skimmer a while back, it kept clogging and debris was jamming the pump.
I use a large bag type pool net on a long pole to manually capture leaves during the Spring and Summer. I cover the pond in the fall with nylon pond netting. It stays covered until Spring.

The point is that, to me, it's no big deal scooping a few leaves now and then.

I don't mind scooping either but when I travel I wouldn't be able to. I'm trying to avoid covering with a net. I like the negative edge idea because it sounds like they all accumulate in one place and I can just collect them from there.

 

[stavo]

Okay, I think this is the way I'm going to go. While I value everyone's suggestions, and having water flow coming from two separate areas would be cool, I think keeping it as simple as possible is a pretty high priority for me.

This way I only have one pump to deal with, and since my power source is slightly beyond the top-right corner of this sketch, it keeps the connection relatively short. The pump will force the water through the bog filter, and from there, gravity will do the rest (hopefully). It will come out of the bog, feeding the waterfall off the berm, then flow through the wider pond, down the stream, over the negative edge, from which it will be pumped again to the bog. I'll take the advice to dig a little deeper - perhaps 3 to 3 1/2 feet in the wider pond, add some smaller fish, and hope they don't go over the edge. I could see the potential for some dead spots - mainly in the bottom right or bottom left corners, but I guess if need be I could add rocks to divert the flow into those sections.

Does anyone see any glaring issues with this plan?