Dying fish please help

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hello pdpond...so sorry for your woes...my first guess would be either a ph fluctuation from night time to day time...do a ph test morning and night to get comparative numbers for me....you really need to get your KH up so the ph doesn't swing from day to night...look up pickling lime and it's uses for jacking up the kh...I use crushed oyster shell in my skimmer and it stays around 120-150.... another thing that popped in my head was something like Costia as it is a very rapid fish killer....you really need to gain access to a microscope......http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?57011-Parasite-pics-in-the-works...these are some of the really nasties you want to avoid...we have people around the world that are CKK's...Certified Koi Keepers and Cindy is one of them...this thread is very informative for your analytical and identification purposes...it will offer symptoms for you to research...sometimes koi/goldie keeping can be a royal pain in the bum if you aren't fully aware of the scope of things....I hope this offers some insight for you to study....Billy
 

pdpond

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so the PH and KH can kill fish? its not like they are dying all at once that's what I don't understand at all, its 1 or 2 a day, usually only over night, I think only 1 has died during the day
On top of that is always the larger goldfish, the small ones and the baby koi seem healthy as can be,
Like I mentioned before I can tell which is going to be dead the next day, they are slow, no responsive, then the next morning, its time for a funeral

what on earth is pickling lime? and crushed oysters, where could I get those?
we don't have to man oysters in Ontario Canada lol
 

pdpond

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I just thought of something else,
the goldfish we bought were from two different ponds,
the second batch was the larger fish that we had, those are the ones that all seem to be dying,
how can I be sure? there were 4 black ones, a decent size compared to the others and they all died within 4 days,
we picked up that batch about 3 weeks ago, is this coincidence or could those fish just have been sick? they came from a VERY dirty pond, I thought I was doing the people a favor by rescuing the fish, I quarantined them for almost a week then released them into our pond, then the rest is history for about a week they are slowing dying off one by one
 

Mmathis

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Plants use oxygen during the night, making less available for the fish. Also, the largest fish have greater requirements due to their size, so they are usually the first casualties.
 

pdpond

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that all makes sense but what about my waterfall is it not creating oxygen? and run by a 5000gph pump, how could I not have enough oxygen?

this is confusing lol, everything I thought was logic seems to be backwards in a pond

don't plants create oxygen?
 
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the oyster shell is to be found at a farm store...they sell it for grit for chickens to eat to digest food in their craw...pickling lime is just what it says...you use it making pickles..look at your local grocery store...algae is a 'plant' and it uses a tremendous amount of your 02...esp @ nighttime....qt is a must and 1 week isnt near enough...many people don't grasp the concept of qting...it is a time...usually 2-6 months that you observe your new fish and treat for any maladies before intro to your main community of fish....some people just throw new fish in and once upon a time i was the worst at it..i would bring fish home, throw them in and in a week or 2 I had them dropping like flies..now nothing goes in my main pond without at least 3 months and some prophylaxis treatments for basic diseases and parasites...remember we are talking about lives here...i mean you wouldnt go to a 3rd world country without following innoculation protocol. would you???Billy..
 

pdpond

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billy thanks for the info and I guess I didn't do nearly enough research before I put the pond in, it was a situation of either wheelbarrow all the rocks from the previous owners pond out, or put in a new pond, so here we stand lol I will look into the shells and lime today and see what I can come up with

after reading your post though I'm starting to understand that its not that I don't have enough resource for oxygen its that I have so much algae right now, its taking the oxygen from the fish? is that correct?
 

pdpond

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Mmathis, did you mean algae use oxygen at night or do that plants as well?

so if I clear up the algae will I have sufficient oxygen again? the fish never started to die till this huge algae bloom a week ago, I think this is all making sense now?
do I rush out and get a aerator? or wait till the algae clears up?
 
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pdpond, I am going to say you should get on the Koiphen.com forum....there is so much to learn and if you are serious about keeping the rest of ,and future fish, alive, it is a very good thing to be a part of...expect the members to ask for your water parameters(readings), pond size, amount of fish, etc....there are many SERIOUS koi keepers there that place a very high value, bot financially and quality wise on their fish...don't let a few koi snobs get your goat.....there is a moron in every bunch that may chime in but just ignore them...just remember it is like what your parents told you about your education growing up...you only get out of it what you put into it...the more you enrich your experience the better it will be for you and your fish...I have had aquariums for 45 yrs and koi for 5 so I already had a really good grasp on the situation but I still managed to kill WAY TOO MANY koi before I figured everything out...and i am still learning...some people watch porn , I research fish...it makes my wife wonder how darn interesting those fish could be....LOL...
.Billy
 
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I don't know much about fish diseases but I can tell you I do feel like your pond probably has plenty of oxygen. did the fish experience a significant difference in water temperature between the old pond the quarantine tank and the new one? I imagine it probably has something to do with dumping 40 fish into a new pond with a filter that has not been cycled
 

pdpond

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billy, I honestly don't want to jump forums back and forth, I figured there would be enough experienced ponders here to give me the answers I was looking for but thanks for the information,

Dieselpower, when I picked up last bunch of fish there was about a dozen of them, I took them home in water from the pond they were in, then I changed up there water in the same container over a week adding some dechlorinator, to keep them healthy, when I did put them into my pond, I took about 25% of my pond water and added it to the container they were in, then again in another couple hrs did the same thing, so I don't feel I shocked the fish with water temperature changes, plus that was 3 weeks ago I picked them up, then 2 weeks ago I put them in my pond, they have only been dying over the last week, but its pretty much every one of those fish that I picked up last, that's what confuses me,
where they in bad shape already because they were in an unfiltered still water very very dirty pond?
 

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I come from NJ and they have lots of sod farms and they do fertilize sod a lot to get a healthy root system
 

fishin4cars

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PD, I would like to see if you can take a pic of one of the sick fish so I can get a look at it. Ich is a parasite, It has an appearance of salt being sprinkled on a fish. You mentioned milky slim, To me that puts a red flag up either chemical reaction, or bacterial infection. I think Billy is on a great track of things to be concerned with and easy cheap and pro-active ways to assist your pond. KH seems low to me, Low ph and low KH can mean a unstable environment for the fish. The more stable the environment the less stressed a fish will be and therefore the more chance it has to fight infections on it's own. KH can be raised slowly with oyster shells, but it can be also raised quicker and more precise using regular baking soda. I would recommend adding several table spoons at a time. About a hour after adding check your KH until you reach a reading of between 120-160. at this time you should see the PH become more neutral or slightly alkaline (7.0-8.0) this is a better range for PH, but PH isn't particularly important as long as it's stable. KH is what makes PH more stable.
From what I'm reading I would also be concerned about chemical reaction. Do you know if your water being put in the pond has Chlorine, chloramine, none (Well Water) ettc. and are you treating the water according to your source water. I have seen more than one hobbyist treat their water and use a declorinating product when they actually had chloramine, the chlorine neautralizer didn't bind the left over ammonia and it ends up leaving a fish with a almost burned effect. (White slimy skin coming off)
Now for the Oxygen questions. Under normal circumstances I think you probably have plenty of oxygen in your water, but in times of stress, more oxygen just make it again easier for fish to fight off stress related issues. so adding more surface water movement or adding air stones is simply helping and not hurting anything. Fish lying on the bottom just before dying tells me stress, but if they were needing oxygen they would probably be gulping for air. so for now I don't think lack of oxygen is a primary concern but again, never hurts to add air.
Have you added any salt? many have mixed opinions on using salt, But from experience, when having questionable problems and there is a skin issue, salt can help a fish build slim coating. So adding 1# of salt per 1000 gallons will not hurt anything and may help some. At least might buy some time until we can figure out what exactly is going on. your pond is a very young pond, maybe cycled but not balanced as far as fish load to filtration factor is concerned. That could still take several months to become completely stable. On your size pond I wouldn't have added but about 10-12 fish for the first 2-4 months then only would have added one or two a month until I reached a balance between what appealed to me and what the filtration system could handle. Throw the rule of 1 inch of fish per ten gallons of water rule out the window. I do not agree with this statement at all. It depends on what YOUR filtration can handle not how many inches per gallon. I have seen way to many ponds fail with 10 fish of 10" in 1000 gallons than I can count, WHY, they simply didn't have enough filtration to handle that kind of load. But on the other hand I have seen 4-24" koi live in perfect harmony in a 2000 gallon pond, One that had a way to remove waste, had plenty of oxygen, stable temp, minimal ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and the water kept up with.
On your test kits, Strip tests are really not the best choice for a novice, they simply are not that accurate and can give false readings to an inexperienced eye. Liquid drop test kits are far more accurate and far better to learn from. American Pharmaceuticals Inc sells a good master kit that has everything you need in it except for the KH and GH test kits, API also makes them too but they are sold separately. The master kit can be purchased for around $30 the KH kit about $7 GH is about the same but really not needed as much as KH. Learning how to adjust water and why, and also learning what is good water and what is GREAT water is very important to fish keepers, Koi can and are very easy to stress in water that is less than ideal. But Keeping ideal water does not have to be hard, you just have to take the time to learn how to keep water, then fish keeping starts to become easy. LOL
Sorry to hear about your losses, and I hope we can help get you back under control and stop losing fish. But keep in mind, The pond is new, there is/was a pretty good load of fish in the pond during start up. your not the first nor will you be the last to go through what we experienced keepers call new pond syndrome. the most important thing is to keep trying to learn as much as you can and it will get better. BTW, on water tests, I recommend new pond keepers to start testing twice a day, once in the morning once in the evening. this will help find what PH swings your experiencing, then go to once a day, this helps establish what the Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are doing, then test at least twice a week one your going, this gives you a chance to spot a problem before it becomes a problem to the fish. Also, Keep a journal, That way if there is a problem you can post for others to see and you remove that water quality problem out of the way and can see what's going on for your self, and gives those with more experience a better chance at diagnosing a problem from what else it MAY be?
 

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