Green Water

[granyhuskr]

This is I am pleased to say I finally got my Skippy built and I love it. It is full of scrubbies and is getting yucky looking so I guess that's good right? I understand I should not clean it, right? I did find out that it works better with the quilt batting on the gridding on the bottom holding up the scrubbies. My water looks a lot better but it is still green. I can see the fish for a foot. This pond is in the sun all day long.
I know I have crud at the bottom as I live in a rural setting. I am thinking of going and getting some Crud Eatter additive. Is this appropriate. My well water pH is 9 and I did a 25% water change to get the total ph of the pond back to 9 as it had risen to 10. Ammonia is 1.5 which is probably from the crud at the bottom of the pond, right? How do I fix this or will the Skippy eventually balance everything out. I've always had a lot of plants, but raccoons were always getting among the plants and I was afraid that they would puncture my liner, also where ever the plants were I got a lot of crud around them because they seemed to block the water flow so I took all the plants out and just have a couple in the Skippy. I also added a big waterfall so I have a lot of water flow and a venturi on my Skippy.
Any thoughts on the green water. With temperatures above 100 everyday maybe it's just because it's so hot. Thanks for all the advice. This forum has gotten me this far.

 

[Waterbug]

I've made many posts on why Skippy isn't a very good filter...here's another one.

The biggest danger you have is that huge ammonia level. Fish won't live long in that environment unless you've added a chemical to bind the ammonia. But even then 1.5 is a lot. It would be even worst if you didn't have green water which absorbs at least some ammonia. Very little ammonia comes from crud, most comes from fish.

The bacteria that convert ammonia would in theory live inside the Skippy. But Skippy collects crud, as you've seen, and the ammonia converting bacteria can't live in that. Other types of bacteria can and are called "bad bacteria" because they can harm stressed fish...like fish living in water with ammonia.

The other thing Skippy is said to do is make water clean. It does that by collecting crud in the media. But trapping the crud is only the first step, it then has to be cleaned out. A real pain.

A Skippy is a combo filter meaning it does everything...poorly. In most water gardens it really doesn't matter how well a Skippy performs as the pond without any filter can handle the fish load just fine. The problem only appears when a pond really does need a bio filter, like your pond.

UV filter will cure the green water. But I would get the ammonia to zero first as the algae is saving your fish by removing at least some ammonia. You might consider tossing the Skippy and add a filter that is 10-30 times better at converting ammonia like a Trickle Tower or a Bakki Shower or a Moving Bed filter.

Algae doesn't much care about the temp.

Adding a Crud Eatter additive is just adding more crud. These things have been proven not to work in studies, but people still feel better adding it. In your case it probably won't do much more harm however since it sounds like you already have a fair amount of crud.

 

[archimedes]

Waterbug, you do have many post here regarding the Skippy filter. And I understand your opinion against them, it seems like sound science. Do you think they have any value as a vortex type filter for settling crud at the bottom to flush out I know, biologically, you think they are of little value.

 

[DrCase]

This is I am pleased to say I finally got my Skippy built and I love it. It is full of scrubbies and is getting yucky looking so I guess that's good right? I understand I should not clean it, right? I did find out that it works better with the quilt batting on the gridding on the bottom holding up the scrubbies. My water looks a lot better but it is still green. I can see the fish for a foot. This pond is in the sun all day long.
I know I have crud at the bottom as I live in a rural setting. I am thinking of going and getting some Crud Eatter additive. Is this appropriate. My well water pH is 9 and I did a 25% water change to get the total ph of the pond back to 9 as it had risen to 10. Ammonia is 1.5 which is probably from the crud at the bottom of the pond, right? How do I fix this or will the Skippy eventually balance everything out. I've always had a lot of plants, but raccoons were always getting among the plants and I was afraid that they would puncture my liner, also where ever the plants were I got a lot of crud around them because they seemed to block the water flow so I took all the plants out and just have a couple in the Skippy. I also added a big waterfall so I have a lot of water flow and a venturi on my Skippy.
Any thoughts on the green water. With temperatures above 100 everyday maybe it's just because it's so hot. Thanks for all the advice. This forum has gotten me this far.

I never clean my Skippy's out once a week during the active month i open the filters drain and let it back flush the muck out , shut the valve and refill
I really never had any problems with ammonia build up in my pond ever. And i always have very nice clear water
I know there are better filters out there !
But I wonder why, If Skippy's worked 15 years ago why they wouldn't work now . mine work :dunno:

 

[crsublette]

Granyhuskr ...

Bio-filters process ammonia so ya should register zero.

A 1.5ppm ammonia indicates your Skippy bio-filter is failing ya either due to crud build up, skippy too small, etc. Ya need to improve it or replace it or use ammonia chemical binder.

Algae consumes ammonia directly; so Waterbug is correct that the pea green algae water is probably preventing your fish from dieing by preventing the ammonia from going higher than 1.5.

First fix or replace your bio-filter. Then, get a UV for the pea green algae.

----------------------------


With 9~10pH, any existing ammonia will be exaggerated registering higher much faster and toxic. Using a toxic ammonia calculator. With 9pH and 82*F water temp and 1.5ppm total ammonia, the toxic portion of your ammonia is .613ppm (very dangerous, deadly). With 7.8pH and 82*F water temp and 1.5ppm total ammonia, the toxic portion of your ammonia is .063 (which is toleratable, kind of)

Since Skippy is a static submerged media, Skippies are not efficient due to the reasons WB mentioned with potential crud build up, but I can see how crud problems are reduced by good pre-filtering and frequent good flushes to remove the crud that has settled in the bottom of the Skippies. I would suggest adding a good air diffusor just below your bio-media to help prevent crud from building up in the bio-media and don't put the diffusor at the bottom where it would push the crud up. I would figure smaller sized Skippies will get cruded up faster as well.

What's the gallon volume of your pond ??

How many fish and can ya guess on the size of fish in the pond ??

What is the size of your skippy??

 

[brandonsdad02]

I would remove the quilt batting on the bottom grid holding the scrubbies up. It will clog up fast and will hinder the filters ability for bacteria to grow on the scrubbies. Batting should be some where you can get to it easy for cleaning and changing.

 

[brandonsdad02]

The other thing Skippy is said to do is make water clean. It does that by collecting crud in the media. But trapping the crud is only the first step, it then has to be cleaned out. A real pain.

A Skippy is a combo filter meaning it does everything...poorly. In most water gardens it really doesn't matter how well a Skippy performs as the pond without any filter can handle the fish load just fine. The problem only appears when a pond really does need a bio filter, like your pond.

I've had good luck with my skippy last year and this year. I built a bog this year and will be taking out my skippy in the spring. I know people could go on for days how some people don't like skippy filters and others think they are worthless. I've had nice, clean and clear water both years with my skippy filter.

I guess each to there own. It has worked for me and I would recommend a skippy filter.

 

[Waterbug]

Waterbug, you do have many post here regarding the Skippy filter. And I understand your opinion against them, it seems like sound science. Do you think they have any value as a vortex type filter for settling crud at the bottom to flush out I know, biologically, you think they are of little value.

Depends on how you define value. For many people Skippy has a lot of value in being something they've made. That's an important part of many hobbies and shouldn't be dismissed. And they work just great in ponds that don't really need a filter. No ammonia, Skippy gets the credit. Clear water, Skippy gets the credit. People don't build these things and then not give them credit for everything good. Even though it's well known ponds without any filter can be clear or never have ammonia. Just as it's well known ponds with a Skippy can have high ammonia and/or unclear water.

If you look at a filter purely as a tool to accomplish a job I think there are much better choices. If I have a fish load that the pond by itself can't handle do I pick a Skippy or a filter that converts 10-30 times as much ammonia, almost never has to be cleaned and is easier/cheaper to build? To me that's not really a difficult choice.

A Skippy isn't a vortex filter. If you mean can everything inside of a Skippy be thrown out and the tub or drum used to make a vortex filter then sure. But even engineered vortex filters are pretty poor filters for removing waste compared to newer filters like sieve or bead or even a sand/gravel. So while a 55 gal drum or a 100 gal Rubbermaid stock tank could be made into a vortex and it would no doubt collect some waste I don't think it would be worth the effect in the build, or the space it uses, or the cost of water and time needed for back washing compared to the tiny amount of waste removed.

A Skippy could also be converted pretty easily to a moving bed filter or a shower filter or a trickle tower filter. Again, tossing everything inside the Skippy and just using the tank. But the result wouldn't be a Skippy.

It's static submerged media that has always been the weak link. Not just for Skippy, but all such filters.

And static submerged media filters are not the only filters I think are poor. There have been lots of filters that were once considered good and then shown to be not as good as originally hoped, or were replaced by better choices. Settling tanks, vortex, bead, gravel (as a bio filter), etc. These are just tools to me. I just try to pick the best tool for whatever I job I need accomplished.

 

[Mmathis]

WB, am starting so see one problem with my SKIPPY [running for a month], and that has to do with lack of mechanical filtration. I have my pump "boxed" and covered with filtration pads [as a pre-filter], but when I put quilt batting at my SKIPPY outflow, it gets filthy filthy and has to be changed at least twice a day. I guess that's the "fines" I hear everyone talking about. But whatever it is, it's continuously circulating in my pond unless I do use the quilt batting. And if it's in the water that enters the SKIPPY, then it's going to clog my biomedia. I've wondered if there will come a time when the water clears enough -- that maybe this is all due to my having a new pond, etc., etc., etc.

When I take a water sample, the water is clear to the eye, and only very very very slightly brownish tinged [like very dilute iced tea]. I took a sample a few weeks ago and set it aside to see if anything settled out. Absolutely nothing that the eye can see [almost wish I had a microscope to look ].

I have emptied it from the bottom drain several times [for water changes] and there isn't any significant amt. of "crud" that comes out.

I will say that my water tests are good [0ppm on everything, with pH stable at 7.8] so far. But again, have only been up for a month, so need to wait & see what happens in the long run.

 

[koiguy1969]

Mmathis... i use prefilters also...mine probably traps 95% + of floating debris. its true if you start with a dirty pond your prefilter(s) will need cleaning often. but as it gets cleaner the duration beween cleanins grows significantly...i clean mine every 10 days to 2 weeks. but i only put 1000 gph thru my filter. regardless of other peoples opinions. i believe your pumping way too much water thru the filter. at 1000 gph the flow is light enough to allow things to settle on the bottom of the filter, where it can more easily be flushed out!...your running 3600gph if memory serves, and thats a pretty strong flow. thats why the crud that makes it to your filter stays in suspension longer and makes it up and into your media. clogging it up! i have used the same media since 2008 and have yet to "clean" it, yet it is by no means "gunked up"... i think your making a mistake putting the fiberfill in the filter. put it on its own with part of your pumps flow feeding it. or let your filters output feed it. and you shouldnt need to run a fines filter all the time...an ocassional couple days at a time should be plenty once your water is clear. i can only say what my experience has been, and what i do. i keep a larger fish load, and feed pretty heavy by most peoples standards. and my filters both perform very well.
side note... i do have 3150 gph coming out of my filter thru the waterfall weir, but 2150 gph (prefiltered also) is pumped directly into the top of the filter. not thru it. i'm sure that this post will get argued on but this has been my experience..and my advise to you...take it or leave it, it's your choice.

 

[Waterbug]

WB, am starting so see one problem with my SKIPPY [running for a month], and that has to do with lack of mechanical filtration. I have my pump "boxed" and covered with filtration pads [as a pre-filter], but when I put quilt batting at my SKIPPY outflow, it gets filthy filthy and has to be changed at least twice a day. I guess that's the "fines" I hear everyone talking about. But whatever it is, it's continuously circulating in my pond unless I do use the quilt batting. And if it's in the water that enters the SKIPPY, then it's going to clog my biomedia. I've wondered if there will come a time when the water clears enough -- that maybe this is all due to my having a new pond, etc., etc., etc.

That's kind of the bottom line with any mechanical filter. They're suppose to remove stuff from the water, that's their job. Next question is how do you get the collected stuff out of the filter? Being hard or expensive to clean is a downside. You can reduce flow to reduce the amount of stuff collected, but that defeats the purpose of the filter.

When bead filters first came out they were considered the perfect filter. Mechanical and bio and easy to clean. Everyone wanted one even though they were several thousand dollars, and many people added them. Slowly people started seeing the bio function falling off so they had to clean (backwash) more often to keep the bio working. Loss of bio = loss of fish so that was most important. So people were backwashing daily and still not keeping up. So manufacturers added auto backwashing timers. Well after awhile people couldn't deal with 100-200 gal per day water use and bead filters slowly went out of style as a bio filter. Still used some as pre-filters.

Mechanical filters require very slow low volume water movement while bio filters require fast high volume. Which is why trying to combine these functions has never worked very well. Most combo filters try to split the difference and do neither very well.

 

[koiguy1969]

i gotta ask...why is it neccessary for a high flow rate for biological filtering in a submerged media filter, as long as O2 levels are adequate for a healthy bacterial colony and arent depleted to the point of the aerobic bacteria suffering from it? i disagree with that... if the bacteria must have physical exposure to the ammonia, or nitrite.to process it.. slower moving water would make access easier and longer. on trickle towers and bakki showers i would agree, to utilized more surface area, and the need to keep the media wet and its only a thin layer of water trickling over it.

 

[Mmathis]

KOIGUY, Your memory is correct. I am running 3600 GPH pump, but have it split. And where it enters the SKIPPY, I have it cranked way down. My main spots for quilt batting: a thick piece directly under the outflow (in the filter) and hanging off the outflow as the water enters the pond (filter is pond side, until we build the waterfall).

Now that the water is clearing and I can see the bottom, I'm seeing lots of crud-particles (doesn't LOOK like algae, but could be) on the sides and bottom. Looks like some dirt got washed in, too. I want to use the Shop Vac, and if it's dirt/soil, go ahead and get it out -- but we have a tadpole nursery right now They're our first, so don't want to risk sucking them up. So will wait a few more weeks.

 

[crsublette]

why is it neccessary for a high flow rate for biological filtering in a submerged media filter, as long as O2 levels are adequate for a healthy bacterial colony and arent depleted to the point of the aerobic bacteria suffering from it?

I think ya already answered it. Your bacteria colonies only grow to the size of O2 available regardless of how much NH3 and surface area is available. Do ya test dissolved O2 levels in your skippy ??

Bacteria need at least 1 mg/L of dissolved O2 just to be alive, more to process ammonia, taking into consideration of how much O2 fish are consuming as well, and if you are sucking water in from the bottom of the pond or near the surface area. According to the water planet, takes 4.18 pound of O2 to process 1 pound of NH3. Not for sure how to convert this down to mg/L of O2 to ppm of NH3. Any know? please share. Another good read from a water treatment company. Be nice to read this info that is converted to the scale of a pond environment in mg/L and ppm.

Trickle/shower towers are so much more effective due to their much higher O2 availability. I bet a normal sized strawberry pot trickle tower or a small fluidized media filter utilizes more surface area, bigger bacteria colonies, than a 30 or more gallon skippy. It would be interesting to read a journal article regarding this. I bet its out there somewhere, I just haven't found it. Bah, I should've saved the youtube video. I found a video where a fella was keeping eight 12 inch koi in a 70 gallon aquarium and all he had was a shoebox sized, fantastic fluidized media bio-filter, in a cabinet, underneath the aquarium. Water velocity is actually quite fast over tower bio-filters and even more so on shower towers since shower towers can become so tall. To give ya an idea, 3600gph coming out of a 2" pipe falls at a rate of 5.9 feet per second before it hits the bio-media, which I imagine water slows down a little upon hitting the bio-media.

I think be better to convert the Skippy to a fluidized bio-filter. Just gotta; 1) change out the bio-media to something that floats and can be stirred; 2) turn the spray bar up or put a powerful aerator with a big diffusor to provide a current to circulate media; 3) put a screen over the outflow so that none of the bio-media floats out. However, ya then lose your mechanical filtration, that is the "settling chamber" portion to the Skippy.

All bio-filters have their downfalls. Appears it all comes down to quality of mechanical filtering and O2 availability to determine the size and efficiency of bacteria colonies.

 

[Waterbug]

If the flow rate is low enough for a mechanical to work it will collect crap. Media covered with dead organic matter will kill or not allow ammonia converting bacteria to establish. Covering bacteria with even thinnest level of dead organic matter does not allow O2 and ammonia to reach the bacteria. The dead organic matter is a barrier. We're talking about very tiny creatures, it takes very little to bury them. Water can have high O2, but it doesn't matter if that water can't get to the bacteria. Higher flow rate is needed to keep dead organic matter from settling on the bacteria. Pretty simple.

While the tiny bit of dead organic matter kills ammonia converting bacteria it's the perfect environment for harmful bacteria like Aeromonas.