Help me please...koi are dying

[Mmathis]

@sweetbeats When they sold you the liquid pH test, did they also mention checking things like ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, KH, and GH? If not, I would recommend that you find test list for those (like API) and test as well as for pH. PH is important, but all of the water parameters should be taken into consideration. It is correct that the NUMBER VALUE of your pH isn’t as significant as the fact that the number remains stable. The test for KH will give us more info regarding that.

Yes, unfortunately, sometimes we do learn the hard way about adding new fish. Mostly we recommend a quarantine period for any new fish before they are added to the exitisting fish. One of those fish could have been sick — or maybe just adding the new fish was enough to tip your pond. Your pond was doing great for 3 years, and this may not have a thing to do with anything you’ve done or are doing with it. As koi grow, their size alone can add to the pond’s bioload.

As a general rule, we don’t advocate the use of salt (we are a garden pond forum with a slightly different philosophy than the dedicated koi pond people — not better or worse, just different), nor do we advocate the use of chemicals or additives aside from dechlorinator. If you can get another test kit and give us those other water parameter readings, it would be helpful.

 

[sweetbeats]

I don’t even know what KH and GH are...I asked about ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and they said there’s no point in trying to control those until there are good bacteria established in the pond. My hope is to avoid getting into a passing match (please excuse the term) here...and the folks that sold me the stuff and gave me the advice are a well known regional source for healthy koi, koi pond setup and maintenance. I’m just trying to explain why we listened.

Here are some pics of our pond:



Some of the koi seem to still be doing okay, but the bigger ones not so much. They all appear calm...I did get one of the big ones to take a bite today but they don’t seem much interested in food. The water does look so much better though...no foaming, and very clear, but here is our favorite koi...”Orange Crush” we call him...haven’t seen him for days (there are several shelter rocks in the pond)...my eyesight isn’t really great but his scales look lifted, smaller fins appear rotted, and he’s got white stuff hanging on him:



I need to figure out where I get a kit to test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. I did find this out in the barn with random other things left behind by the previous owner, but this doesn’t look like it will help:



...sigh...

I can’t really describe how heavy we feel just watching these beautiful creatures, our pond friends, just waste away like this, and to feel responsible.

 

[MitchM]

The fish in the pictures look like they are suffering from dropsy, an inability to adapt to the water conditions.
(an inability to properly osmoregulate) There can be many causes for the fish to develop this. Treatment is a warm salt water bath, but dropsy is usually fatal if not treated. The fish needs to be removed from the pond and treated in a separate container.

Water quality is an issue here, so if the koi dealers have a good name, I think you must have misunderstood what they said. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH, GH, PH are exactly what you want to test for.
A liquid test kit is the only type of kit that will give you accurate results.
Water temperature should be measured as well.
KH and GH measure the minerals in the water, and minerals are essential for proper life functions of bacteria, plants and fish.
Proper KH and GH measurements also keep the PH in a reasonable, stable range.

.

 

[Mmathis]

@sweetbeats You can find liquid test kits at pet stores that carry fish, like PetCo, PetSmart, and just local pet stores. You can also mail order them from almost any “pond” web site, even AMAZON. Most of us use something like the API Master kit. You would have to add the tests for KH and GH.

You want:

• Ammonia
• Nitrites
• Nitrates
• pH (most kits have 2 separate tests included — one for high range pH results, and one for low range pH resuslts)
• KH (carbonate hardness)
• GH (general hardness)
• A water pond/pool thermometer as @MitchM mentioned
• O2 test — to check the level of oxygen — an important but not a vital test at this point

IMHO it’s important to monitor ALL of these water parameters, and in a new pond (or any time problems appear), it’s even more important. A lot of us do stop doing regular testing after our ponds are cycled, but they still need to be checked periodically. Everything relates to and reacts with something else in the water.

Check the expiration dates to be sure the kit is fresh. You said something about a shed, but I prefer to keep my testing kits indoors where it’s more climate controlled. Also, carefully read the directions because each test is slightly different (like having to shake the test bottle, or adding drops one at a time — or titration— instead of adding X number of drops to a test tube).

Anyway, if you can get hold of these tests ASAP, please give us the NUMBER results. From there, we can guide you and explain how these all relate to each other.

And yes, please isolate the obviously sick fish. We can also give you more info about quarantine if you need it.

And let me add that we totally understand how you feel about your fish! We’ve all been where you are at some point — we care deeply about our little friends — and that’s why we want to help you make yours all better!

 

[Lisak1]

Your pond is very pretty @sweetbeats and we all understand your heavy heart... it's frustrating and sad to see this happening.

If I could comment on one thing you said - you are taking advice from a

well known regional source for healthy koi, koi pond setup and maintenance.

. However, there is a difference between a Dedicated Koi Pond (DKP) and what you appear to have, which is a garden or eco-pond. One of the biggest differences is plants in the pond - a DKP will not have plants or rocks or gravel in the pond. Management of these two types of ponds varies - for example, salt may be recommended in a DKP, but in a garden pond salt will likely negatively affect or even kill your plants. An eco-pond relies more on the balance of the pond to keep the water and fish healthy; a DKP relies more heavily on filtration and additives, as there are no plants or gravel to add to the eco-system. I hope that makes sense.

Just something to think about as you continue to work to resolve this issue.

 

[Tula]

I'm very sorry you're going through this. I agree with @MitchM , Orange Crush has dropsy This is an example of when salt treatment is effective, but do not treat your entire pond with salt, instead remove the affected fish to an aerated container and treat there.

I'm trying to recall the recommended therapeutic salinity for a salt bath. I don't want to give bad advice, so perhaps someone else knows the answer?

 

[sweetbeats]

Thanks so much for the comprehensive set of information.

I'm stopping at a local chain pet store today that I believe has the API Master Test Kit in stock...getting that, a thermometer, and hopefully something to test salinity, and I'll look for the KH and GH test kits but I'm doubtful they will have those...will likely need to source those online I imagine...I will post numerical test results when I have them.

I have what I believe is a 100gal stock tank I can use for quarantine, like this:

https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...g424288bla-stock-tank-100-gallon-black-270079

I need to figure something out for aeration...I think I have a bubbler for an indoor aquarium but I imagine that's not adequate...or I bet I can rig something up with my air compressor.

I'm very interested to know more about the quarantine conditions (i.e. temp, salinity, duration of treatment, etc.)

Thanks again, all for taking your time to help, and for the sentiments. We really appreciate it.

 

[sissy]

for now even another pump with the water spitting upward out of the water would add aeration to the pond

 

[sweetbeats]

for now even another pump with the water spitting upward out of the water would add aeration to the pond

I thought about that, but the only such thing I have is a spare Shinmaywa 10,500gph pump. That might be overkill.

Am I correct in assuming I should bucket water from the pond into the quarantine tank vs. filling the tank with fresh water?

 

[MitchM]

Pond water will be fine.
Salt the hospital tank to 0.8% salinity before you put the fish in.
Have the hospital tank at the same temperature as the pond water and raise the hospital tank temperature 3 degrees F per day until it reaches 78 - 80F. Maintain that temperature and observe the fish for a few days.
When you are at the pet store, also pick up a bottle of clove oil to be used for either sedation so you can examine the fish further or euthanasia.

 

[sissy]

I would hope all the vinegar is out of the pond water .You can buy a cheap pond pump or I know petco carries trheir own brand of aerator but it does need to bew protected from weather and has 4 ports .I used one for years and it sill works great .It was around 24 dollars back then and got it onsale for less

 

[sissy]

 

[sissy]

35.79

 

[sweetbeats]

Pond water will be fine.
Salt the hospital tank to 0.8% salinity before you put the fish in.
Have the hospital tank at the same temperature as the pond water and raise the hospital tank temperature 3 degrees F per day until it reaches 78 - 80F. Maintain that temperature and observe the fish for a few days.
When you are at the pet store, also pick up a bottle of clove oil to be used for either sedation so you can examine the fish further or euthanasia.

How do I determine 0.8% salinity? Is there a ratio of salt to water to get close and then verify with a salinity test kit or something?

Where does one get clove oil?

I don't have a heater for the stock tank. I assume I need to buy one, and I further assume that's an expensive item that I may not be able to find at the local pet store. Does anybody have any recommendations on affordable solutions for this? We are in a bad way financially right now.

 

[MitchM]

I thought about the vinegar, but because the health problem is with osmoregulation, I didn't want to complicate the situation more by placing it in water that it would have to adjust to.