Hole-in-the ground

Mmathis

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Sorry for the odd topic title, but that's what it is..... :)

Was looking at pics in other posts. Our hole doesn't look like anyone else's hole. I'll try to download a few pics. I guess each pond is an individual, but hoping we've done this right. Our dig is approx. 13' x 17' and just under 4' @ the deepest point. I have a sloping shelf on the side where the turtles will be (spell-correct made that be turkeys instead of turtles -- boy, you guys really would think I'm a little off...), that is about 3-4' wide, sloping from about a foot down to 18" or so. Somehow we ended up with some undercutting along one side that I'm trying to flesh out with our clay ( it's like working with art clay -- kinda fun & relaxing. Slap a glob of clay on & mash it in :) ). No vertical sides: isn't it recommended to have at least a 20-30 degree slope?

It doesn't have that nice & neat look. Not smooth. Working with wet clay is kinda tricky, (hard to shape it). But afraid that once the clay dries out, any work to even it out & smooth it will make the sides collapse (dry clay tends to want to break out in hunks). Still working at getting the roots cut back (cutting into the dirt so they don't poke out later, when the liner is in).

Not sure if I'm looking for advice or reassurance.... Just wanted to talk to someone :)
 

addy1

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Jen
You can have a slope or straight sides. My sides are straight, the bottom slopes from the walk out area to the deep. Our soil is a lot of rocks with a little dirt, mixed with clay. One wall of the pond is a very rocky wall I found as I dug.
 

fishin4cars

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If your really worried about the clay breaking away get a packer from lowes or home depot. they sell a 8" square and a 12" square tamp. I decided on the 8" x 8" and glad I did, as much clay packing as we had to do the one I chose worked us big time. the bigger one I think would have been to much for long use. Make sure and pack anything that appears loose before installing the liner, the last thing you want is dirt to collapse after the liner is installed.
 

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My sides are just very slightly sloped. We have sandy soil and it's all staying in place now nicely for several yrs.
 

Mmathis

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Larkin,

By tamper, do you mean the manual kind? We already have a 10" one from a previous project. I have some really squishy mud, that displaces instead of packing down -- at least @ this point. Once it dries a little more it will stiffen up, but then will be harder to tamp or otherwise manipulate. There is a spot on one side where hubby stepped, and his weight pushed out a shelf. When I stepped on it, trying to tamp & level it, the stuff underneath squished out, just making the shelf wider. Frustrating!

Is there any way to make a "dam" as part of the structure of the pond, that would hold back the muddy clay? Kinda like using decking lumber as a retaining wall...... The liner could cover it. What I'm afraid of is that the below-ground-level clay will never totally dry out due to seepage, and over time won't hold the shape of the pond once the liner & water are added.
 

fishin4cars

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I've used wood for shelves, damns, and retaining walls in the past. No problem. trick is to seal it before placing it in direct contact with the dirt. I found using plastic between the wood and the ground helps extend the length of time the wood last. Also something else you can try on the muddy clay, mix in some sandy soil and dry dirt and pack it in with the soggy, It will help draw the water out and make the clay stick better. Once the liner is installed the clay will stiffen greatly but walking on it right now or applying any significant weight will make it mush outward.
 

Mmathis

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Hmmmm.... Well, it's got me thinking about the dynamics of just what goes on in the world under our feet. Have never studied physics, engineering, or hydro- whatever, but isn't nature amazing?

Just don't have enough experience to know what's normal(?), what to expect, or what will happen next....

If I were to leave things as they are now and let the whole hole (sides in particular) dry out, do you think everything would be OK for getting the liner in and expecting the walls to survive? Barring more rain, that is. IOW, is it possible that I'm over-thinking and over-manipulating: OVER-REACTING?

Also wondering if adding something like a French drain would help. I recall some posts about that. It does seem like the seepage and squishyness is confined to one side.
 

fishin4cars

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yes, give it a day or two and the soil should get drier and easier to work with. I have been having the same issues. The top of the hills the soil has dried out and become very crumbly, the soil below the liner is staying soft. I have found that if I mix some of the dried out dirt with the soft and pack it in I get a more solid packed in shelf.
 

koiguy1969

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gotta agree with fishin'...i built my waterfall mound out of the dirt from my dig. as i piled it, i chopped it up with a shovel, and misted it with the hose. i then used a tamper to pack it down as i went, layer by layer. in no time it was as solid as the rest of the yard....
 
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Our soil is solid clay. When we did our first dig to fit in a preform last year it was really hard to work with so we made the hole quite a bit bigger and then back-filled with dirt we purchased. This year when we pulled out the preforms the clay sides hadn't budged. When we expanded the hole for our bigger pond. We worked with the ground while it was mostly dry. No mud at all but still just enough moisture to get a shovel in there. We used a regular shovel and then one of those gardening things that are just flat. Don't know what they are called, maybe a big spade? That really helped us chip away the clay but keep the bottom flat and the sides straight. Once we got down about 2' the clay was rock hard so my husband had to use a pick ax to chop it away and then we just went around the edges with the flat spade thing to give the shape. We didn't do anything with it while wet cause all the mud and mush was impossible to work with. I think it is pretty solid especially with the weight of all the water pushing against the walls, I don't think they will collapse over time.

Not sure if that helps at all with your current issue, but it's what we did.
 

Mmathis

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OK, on the big computer. Let's see if I can get this image up.

I took this shot this morning. You can see the inch or so of standing water from seepage. The main area I've been concerned about is the left-side edge: that was supposed to be a straight wall but hubby stepped on it and it turned into a ledge. Guess I can leave it that way, but overall am concerned about the stability there. Also notice all the "rough," lumpy stuff that's everywhere. Just a bunch of "dirt clods," as we called them when I was a kid. Do I need to smooth those out and if so, how smooth? Those are some pretty big lumps......
 

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Hmmm, your clay looks a little different then ours. Ours is rock hard. Its hard just to get a shovel in it at all, and it definitely doesn't crumble. Afraid I can't be much help. Although, it didn't look in the picture like you had quite got to your planned dimensions? I'm wondering because if you still have room to move the edge out I would just dig it straight down again and be very careful around the edges. I wouldn't think that once you get water and rocks in there the ground will be moving any under the liner.
 

Mmathis

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JenH, It IS hard to tell about the dimensions from this pic -- I was zooming in on the problem areas. Sorry about that. If you look, I have 2 green lines that show the sides for width & length. On the right side, that area is actually a sloping ledge that will be incorporated into my box turtle habitat. In the pic it's not easy to distinguish. About the clay..... When we dug it, the ground was pretty saturated and the clay was wet & squishy. We've manipulated it some since then, mainly trying to fill in some under-cuts, collapsing walls, and fixing where my hubby made that unintentional ledge. I've been tossing clay "clods" into the hole, too. Give it a few more days and it, too, will be hard as a rock. I'm sure you understand how with clay soil you have to time your work between the squishy and the "concrete" stages! :)

If you have any suggestions/insight about ponding in clay soil, I welcome the input!
 

Mmathis

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Things are looking a little better -- I'm calming down. Seepage has stopped for now and it's drying out. Was able to do some cosmetic and structural work on the walls yesterday. Have been adding sand & non-clay soil, and that seems to be helping some. Using that with the squishy clay makes a nice "patch-n-fill" mixture for smoothing the rough areas and filling in any gaps (where chunks have fallen out and where the sides were undercut).

And, BTW, using my reciprocating saw on the roots that are sticking out. Works great for cutting them way back into the soil - little or no effort involved and does little to disturb the soil!
 

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Keep plugging away TM and you'll have it just the way you want it! Glad it's working out for ya. This is really going to be cool to see when you get finished!
 

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