I'm so upset! Two dead Koi! l

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I went through your original pond thread.
(I came across the answer to the filter question I asked)
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/was-this-a-bad-idea.22087/

How much time was it between when you added water to the pond and when you added the fish?
After you added the fish, how often did you test the water?
How long were the koi in the stock tank before you put them in your pond?

.
 
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I agree with others, that you're NOT dragging this out. I'm always interested in learning :) Like Mitch, I use a membrane disc aerator, it's for my 40 LPM ( Matala is the brand ) aerator I run in the summer months. I run a 20 LPM Pondmaster aerator in the winter and cool parts of Fall and Spring....it has 4 airstones.
 
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I went through your original pond thread.
(I came across the answer to the filter question I asked)
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/was-this-a-bad-idea.22087/

How much time was it between when you added water to the pond and when you added the fish?
After you added the fish, how often did you test the water?
How long were the koi in the stock tank before you put them in your pond?

.

The pond had water for a week before we added the fish so they were in the stock tank a week. I tested the water every few day at first. After realizing the readings were always the same I only tested weekly.
 
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I agree with others, that you're NOT dragging this out. I'm always interested in learning :) Like Mitch, I use a membrane disc aerator, it's for my 40 LPM ( Matala is the brand ) aerator I run in the summer months. I run a 20 LPM Pondmaster aerator in the winter and cool parts of Fall and Spring....it has 4 airstones.


Why do you use a seperate aerator for winter?
 

sissy

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I think a lot of us use aerators that have koi as they grow they need it .I use 12 large laguna air stones with my laguna aerator .I use 1 in each filter and the rest are at different heights in the pond
 
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The pond had water for a week before we added the fish so they were in the stock tank a week. I tested the water every few day at first. After realizing the readings were always the same I only tested weekly.
A mature biofilm takes 4 to 6 weeks to develop after an ammonia source is added.
What size was the stock tank and how many fish were kept in it?
 

callingcolleen1

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I seen that "the Pond Guy" had a winter special that popped up on my facebook yesterday. His recommendations were to use a green 1250 watt pond heater with an accelerator {air pump} and to save energy he had a device that you would plug into the electrical socket before you plug in the heater, and it would turn heater on when air temperatures fell too low and turn off when weather was nice automatically. I think that option would work best for you as the pond breather failed badly. The trouble with low watts and extreme temperature lows, the pond froze way to hard. People that have extreme winters should not use that pond breather for KOI or large fish, or at least have a pond heater as back up when weather is very cold. That pond breather should only be rated to minus 10 Celsius. Way too many people complained and now even the Pond guy is not recommending it,
 
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Why do you use a seperate aerator for winter?

For a couple of reasons. Cold water holds more O2 then warm water and secondly, I don't want too much disturbance of the water in the cold weather. 40 LPM is quite a bit of air for my 1700 gallon pond, but my 4 koi love it in the summer, swimming through it !
 
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I seen that "the Pond Guy" had a winter special that popped up on my facebook yesterday. His recommendations were to use a green 1250 watt pond heater with an accelerator {air pump} and to save energy he had a device that you would plug into the electrical socket before you plug in the heater, and it would turn heater on when air temperatures fell too low and turn off when weather was nice automatically. I think that option would work best for you as the pond breather failed badly. The trouble with low watts and extreme temperature lows, the pond froze way to hard. People that have extreme winters should not use that pond breather for KOI or large fish, or at least have a pond heater as back up when weather is very cold. That pond breather should only be rated to minus 10 Celsius. Way too many people complained and now even the Pond guy is not recommending it,

How would a higher wattage improve the pond breather?
How did you determine -10C was a limit for the pond breather? Mine have worked fine down to -40C temperature, -52 windchill and 2 feet of ice.
 

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How would a higher wattage improve the pond breather?
How did you determine -10C was a limit for the pond breather? Mine have worked fine down to -40C temperature, -52 windchill and 2 feet of ice.
Hey Mitch, didn't you have to dig out your pond breather one year cause it was completely covered with snow and ice?? while you walked on your frozen solid pond with two feet or more of ice?? Ya, that is exactly why I would not use that thing. Maybe my fish are still alive and well after 27 years cause I never let my 3 or 4 foot ponds freeze over with more that two feet of ice! Now that's scary!!
Your fish are small minnows, and not large koi or goldfish. You should really should read all the negative comments online about that pond breather this year....
My new top pond is five feet deep and I still would not let that pond freeze that hard either as the koi are VERY large these days...
 
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callingcolleen1

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How would a higher wattage improve the pond breather?
How did you determine -10C was a limit for the pond breather? Mine have worked fine down to -40C temperature, -52 windchill and 2 feet of ice.
a higher wattage with more pump flow, better filter, and that would keep a small pond from freezing solid.

Minus 10 Celsius and no more for people with big koi and goldfish. That is all it really is good for
 
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a higher wattage with more pump flow, better filter, and that would keep a small pond from freezing solid.

Minus 10 Celsius and no more for people with big koi and goldfish. That is all it really is good for

The pond breather does not have a filter.
You didn't explain how a higher wattage would help the performance.
Stating a -10C limit over and over again does not explain why you chose that temperature as it's limit.

After one snowstorm I left the breathers alone and found that they would clear their own hole in the snow.

.
 

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The pond breather does not have a filter.
You didn't explain how a higher wattage would help the performance.
Stating a -10C limit over and over again does not explain why you chose that temperature as it's limit.

After one snowstorm I left the breathers alone and found that they would clear their own hole in the snow.

.
look at all the thick ice you had with that thing. Most people only have a 3 or 4 foot pond and if the first two feet freeze then there is not much room for large fish. Pond breathers do not work for exteme cold and people down south were having trouble with that breather who don't have extreme cold or as long of winter as we do. The breather failed horribly for others in milder climates. Its been a complete failure and now widespread reports on Internet as well. I gave it -10 Celsius at best cause last similar device sold by Laguna way back in early 2000's was only rated to -5 Celsius and written in very small letters ... Lots of people lost their fish here in Medicine Hat using that device and I had to deal with very angry people that year I worked at SunTec Garden Center.

Some day the big companies will improve their technologies and hopefully something better will be created
 
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Angela; there's nothing wrong with using an aerator (at the proper height) AND a breather AND a cattle trough heater AND a pump near the surface AND a heater AND a cover; they all can be used and will give you better odds for fish survival. I just don't think they're all necessary in lower Michigan, as some TOP EXPERTS think. If you have enough volume and depth, have a balanced pond (re the water parameters and established biofilm) have a fish load commensurate with your pond size, keep the surface open so light can penetrate (one major component you didn't have this winter), have a hole open for any toxic gases (from ongoing decay) to escape, and don't have a lot of decaying matter during winter months, you'll be fine here in MICHIGAN; I won't speak for Canada--that's for top experts. Any of the above can derail success AS WELL AS some fish are just more sensitive to extremes; be it O2 level, CO2, temperatures, disease, etc.


Since I have the same weather, more or less, as you, and have lost maybe 5 fish in 7 years during the winter, seems I might have an insight.


If your fish are at least 10 years old (as you state in an earlier post), I’m surprised the largest is ONLY 12”? Thought koi got a lot larger than that (I have 12” goldfish!)? So your case is NOT one of large koi in the dead of Siberia, and not even close to what I have (100 gf, most over 6”, 10 or so at 12”) in 2700 gallons. I had an aerator ‘Fail’ one year and possibly lost 1-2 fish that year. That’s not why I got the breather though, I just felt it would ‘fail’ less than another aerator. I’d still use one if my breather went out, but would have to melt a hole in the ice. A dual system is a good thing, but I don’t think your fish died because of lack of oxygen DUE TO THE BREATHER; a breather does NOT add oxygen, nor does an aerator, but an aerator does facilitate the process better than a breather because of the turbulence. But this turbulence goes down as ice closes the aeration hole with slush. In the dead of winter, unless you have a large air pump and can maintain healthy turbulence, an aerator will only do what a breather does; keep a hole open to release any buildup of toxic gas.


btw, did we establish exactly how much volume you have at the 4.5' mark? I actually think you have more than 2100 gallons. I think you mentioned your deep part begins half the length of your pond, so that would make it 10' x 10' x 4.5' (7.48) and give you at least 3300 gallons. Which is a lot better than thinking you have half your 2100 per the counter. I'd get some sort of better estimate, just because you might need it one day for possible dosing (disease, pond conditioning, etc).


I think it would help knowing exactly how much volume you have at the deepest depth because as noted before, the more you have, the more capacity for holding O2. And it looks like the lack of is what probably did in your two koi. From the data you’ve already given though, I don’t see depth nor volume per your fish load as being problematic. You had (4) 12” koi, a gf at 8” and the black molly (I’m assuming another koi?(not the tropical variety). That’s not a heavy fish load unless your koi are a lot larger than 12”.


Michael
 
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I also think part of the equation here is that this was essentially a new pond - even though the parts were used previously, it was rebuilt and re-established just last summer. Who knows how much stress the fish were under from being moved out of an existing pond, into a holding tank, and then into a new pond. And then winter hits. More stress. Many possibilities to consider.
 
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