In over my head, building a huge waterfall. Need pointers.
- Thread starter Tjsherrill
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While you're watching the water drop, put a 5 gal bucket in the pond filled to the same level as the pond water level. This will help you better determine evaporation vs. leak. If it's a leak, after a day or so, water level in pond will be lower than level in bucket.
At 1/8" loss per hour, I'd guess it is, in fact, a leak.
Don't worry. Pretty sure I'm still chasing one down, too. We believe in you, though. You're a legend. Follow the other advice you've gotten so far and you'll figure it out.
Now talk to me about the engineering on those block walls. They haven't moved yet, have they.
At 1/8" loss per hour, I'd guess it is, in fact, a leak.
Don't worry. Pretty sure I'm still chasing one down, too. We believe in you, though. You're a legend. Follow the other advice you've gotten so far and you'll figure it out.
Now talk to me about the engineering on those block walls. They haven't moved yet, have they.
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Ok update here.
Seriously it's been a very hard few days. All the work (years) and then feeling like there is a leak is so disheartening. I have used all the swear words and probably made some new ones up.
But, I really appreciate the kind words and support.
@GBBUDD My process for all this is clean mostly rock-free dirt, then underlayment fabric, then the liner, then fabric between the rock and the liner. I am careful to remove any dirt, gravel, rocks, or debris before putting the fabric down on the liner and then the rock. That is why this is frustrating. I was very careful.
@combatwombat the walls are all Windsor wall blocks. https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-x-...Concrete-Retaining-Wall-Block-81100/100333178 Nothing special. I wish I had gone with the bigger ones, but as we plant more plants, the walls will fade back anyway. The blocks have stayed solid. The deal, as I understand it is: never more than 4' tall and allow for 4' of depth before starting another.
I do have a few questions:
1. the leak has slowed quite a bit. Is that likely from the ground being soaked and it can only take so much water? Its maybe gone down a 1/16 in since this morning.
2. I have used milk to test but have found nothing. Is milk the best, or is there another solution?
3. Should I drain it down further with a pump so that I can get closer to the seam?
With having to seam the liner to add more to the pond, I am worried my seam was somehow faulty. I was careful but it was my first time and it was 20' long. But now with the things "leaking" so slowly, it is getting harder and harder. I was at 700 gallons at like 10-12" filled. So having the milk pull into the "leak" is hard because it would have to be right on it. The level is now at like 6-8" total depth
The other challenge is that I can only access parts of the liner and the seam. With so many large boulders it's impossible to reach/see everywhere.
Here is a video showing you what I am seeing. Once you've watched it, my thinking is to get a friend to help me move the two rocks that are close out of the way and see if the leak is under there by using the milk again. But there is no guarantee that that I would find it.
I appreciate all of you, and appreciate any feedback, thoughts, ideas, questions, whatever. I was hoping to start this thing and run it through the fall and winter rather than wait until next spring to get a machine, tear some of it out and hopefully find a leak. So share anything you are thinking.
thanks
Seriously it's been a very hard few days. All the work (years) and then feeling like there is a leak is so disheartening. I have used all the swear words and probably made some new ones up.
But, I really appreciate the kind words and support.
@GBBUDD My process for all this is clean mostly rock-free dirt, then underlayment fabric, then the liner, then fabric between the rock and the liner. I am careful to remove any dirt, gravel, rocks, or debris before putting the fabric down on the liner and then the rock. That is why this is frustrating. I was very careful.
@combatwombat the walls are all Windsor wall blocks. https://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-x-...Concrete-Retaining-Wall-Block-81100/100333178 Nothing special. I wish I had gone with the bigger ones, but as we plant more plants, the walls will fade back anyway. The blocks have stayed solid. The deal, as I understand it is: never more than 4' tall and allow for 4' of depth before starting another.
I do have a few questions:
1. the leak has slowed quite a bit. Is that likely from the ground being soaked and it can only take so much water? Its maybe gone down a 1/16 in since this morning.
2. I have used milk to test but have found nothing. Is milk the best, or is there another solution?
3. Should I drain it down further with a pump so that I can get closer to the seam?
With having to seam the liner to add more to the pond, I am worried my seam was somehow faulty. I was careful but it was my first time and it was 20' long. But now with the things "leaking" so slowly, it is getting harder and harder. I was at 700 gallons at like 10-12" filled. So having the milk pull into the "leak" is hard because it would have to be right on it. The level is now at like 6-8" total depth
The other challenge is that I can only access parts of the liner and the seam. With so many large boulders it's impossible to reach/see everywhere.
Here is a video showing you what I am seeing. Once you've watched it, my thinking is to get a friend to help me move the two rocks that are close out of the way and see if the leak is under there by using the milk again. But there is no guarantee that that I would find it.
I appreciate all of you, and appreciate any feedback, thoughts, ideas, questions, whatever. I was hoping to start this thing and run it through the fall and winter rather than wait until next spring to get a machine, tear some of it out and hopefully find a leak. So share anything you are thinking.
thanks
Chin up . Its unfortunately a part of ponding . I had a rip. @combatwombat has had his share of stress from water droping. We all get something sooner or latter . You didnt build a barbies funnhouse you built the tajmahal youll get through it .
I would make a story pole and a diary
Not sure if I would put some more water in or not.
But record how much it drops from day to say and believe it or not windy days will evaporate the most. If the water is down to 1/16 of an inch in a day you are at or past your leak.
Did you put one piece of liner down prime it apply double sided seam tape primer . then prime the other liner that was to lay down on top of the seam tape roll it all out inbetween steps then cover with cover tape?
Or did you lay the liners on top ofveach other prime both sides then cover with cover tape ? I have seen some videos saying that was good. In my book it falls way short ?
What I might suggest is to seam over your existing seam. If you feel it did not go well.
What primer did you use? Was it well stirred?
I would make a story pole and a diary
Not sure if I would put some more water in or not.
But record how much it drops from day to say and believe it or not windy days will evaporate the most. If the water is down to 1/16 of an inch in a day you are at or past your leak.
Did you put one piece of liner down prime it apply double sided seam tape primer . then prime the other liner that was to lay down on top of the seam tape roll it all out inbetween steps then cover with cover tape?
Or did you lay the liners on top ofveach other prime both sides then cover with cover tape ? I have seen some videos saying that was good. In my book it falls way short ?
What I might suggest is to seam over your existing seam. If you feel it did not go well.
What primer did you use? Was it well stirred?
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I am feeling a little better. So thank you all.
I have a ruler in place and am measuring it a couple of times a day and journalling it. That way I can be clear about how its going.
For the seam, I laid both pieces down with the new one covering the old one 8" then folded the top one back, cleaned both, primed both, rolled out the double-sided seam tape, then put them together, rolling with a small roller as I went. The seam felt good. Then I primed and applied cover tape. This did not go as well. IT had started to rain a little and so there were spots where the cover tape didn't adhere as well as I would have liked. so I think I did ok, but in retrospect I should have slowed down, gotten help and a few other things.
If I continue to only see a 1/6-1/8 a day it feels like that is evaporation. If that is holding to the same by Friday, I am going to look at adding 1-2 inches of water to see if it starts leaking again.
Thoughts?
I have a ruler in place and am measuring it a couple of times a day and journalling it. That way I can be clear about how its going.
For the seam, I laid both pieces down with the new one covering the old one 8" then folded the top one back, cleaned both, primed both, rolled out the double-sided seam tape, then put them together, rolling with a small roller as I went. The seam felt good. Then I primed and applied cover tape. This did not go as well. IT had started to rain a little and so there were spots where the cover tape didn't adhere as well as I would have liked. so I think I did ok, but in retrospect I should have slowed down, gotten help and a few other things.
If I continue to only see a 1/6-1/8 a day it feels like that is evaporation. If that is holding to the same by Friday, I am going to look at adding 1-2 inches of water to see if it starts leaking again.
Thoughts?
I like @GBBUDD 's suggestion - be an observer. Record what you see. Temperature, water loss, wind, sun, rain, humidity, etc. I'd fill it up and let it run. Rocks absorb water, sun, wind, splashing - just so many factors that you just have to give it a go and see what happens in my opinion. My husband was convinced we had a leak the first year. "There's NO WAY we can be losing this much water without a leak!" We measured water and recorded conditions DAILY the whole first season. When he could see the data over time, he realized that a leak leaks at the same pace; evaporation happens more sporadically. You will learn how your pond functions over time - what's normal for you isn't necessarily normal for any other pond.
@combatwombat's suggestion is a good one, too. It's "pan evaporation" - a scientific way of calculating how quickly water evaporates under various conditions by using a container that you are 100% certain does not leak. Removing leaking from the equation leaves you with two bodies of water under the exact same conditions with only one variable.
And honestly I don't know that there's a person on this forum who did not worry that they had a leak at one time or another. Most have turned out to be wrong. So finger's crossed that's the case for you, too!
@combatwombat's suggestion is a good one, too. It's "pan evaporation" - a scientific way of calculating how quickly water evaporates under various conditions by using a container that you are 100% certain does not leak. Removing leaking from the equation leaves you with two bodies of water under the exact same conditions with only one variable.
And honestly I don't know that there's a person on this forum who did not worry that they had a leak at one time or another. Most have turned out to be wrong. So finger's crossed that's the case for you, too!
1/16TH A DAY IS UNQUESTIONABLY EVAPORATION, AND I SPENT TIME FEELING FOR YOU OVER A 1/16" ? i thought it was a hour for a 1/16th it's a day ???? oK im lost,,,,, when you get a couple days readings get back to us but if you are questioning your seam because of rain and you know it didn't stick well then i would caulk the edges of the failed cover tape. Prime the cover tape and the liner on both sides of the cover tape and apply cover tape over both edges , then caulk the edges.
I'm just a newbie so everyone else's ideas are better. But I was curious so I looked online just as I am sure you have done about finding a leak. Most sites stated what has already been stated here but there was one idea I saw which was pretty clever and that was to use a ping pong ball to find the leak. The ball would float on the water and find its way to the leak. The site had not used this idea, so not sure how tested it is. But as this site said it was only the cost of a ping pong ball. Hope you find it, must be so hard, I remember seeing water in my pond for the first time after the liner went it and it rained. It looked like the water level had gone down because of the water line on the rocks, not realizing that the rocks soak up the water, duh, but that moment of dread is sickening.
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Every summer I ALMOST convince myself i have leaks. As the bog grows as it heats up as the wind blows I go from zero water a day added to over 1 hour of water added. The bog plants suck the water out, this year a lot.
Every now and then there is a leak, mainly bog to full of plants = water diversion.
Currently, bog plants still growing, now add water every few days vs every day. When winter hits, if we get winter, the pond stays water stable. I turn all off for the winter, running water break.
Every now and then there is a leak, mainly bog to full of plants = water diversion.
Currently, bog plants still growing, now add water every few days vs every day. When winter hits, if we get winter, the pond stays water stable. I turn all off for the winter, running water break.
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Sorry for the confusion, it has slowed to 1/16-1/8 a day. In total I have lost prob 5 inches since partial filling.
Well if you Fill that area up with water and if you get those same numbers Congratulations you do not have a leak .
As someone mentioned rocks do absorb water as well but it can take some time for that to stop. I'd be very happy with a 1/8" a day loss.
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I don't have a well. I am on city water. How much absorption do rocks have? It makes sense just never thought about it.
I have spent so much time, energy and thought getting to this point that I didn't think about operating the system.
thanks
City water can add up expecialy with the amount of falls in full sun that you have . That's when you'll see your evaporation loss.
They can suck up quite a bit actually but only once then it stops . Unless your in Arizona or Florida where the rocks above water level heat up where you could cook an egg . That will cook the water at the edges that wicks into the rock . You'll see the water line on the rocks will be higher than the actual water line. Usually only an inch or two
They can suck up quite a bit actually but only once then it stops . Unless your in Arizona or Florida where the rocks above water level heat up where you could cook an egg . That will cook the water at the edges that wicks into the rock . You'll see the water line on the rocks will be higher than the actual water line. Usually only an inch or two