New pond construction. The Water Garden Pond

[capewind]

I have had great luck from NDK and will continue to buy from them as long as things continue as they have. The ONE complaint I had with them is while they will charge you one price for shipping, no matter how many you buy, they ALL go into ONE box. I cant remember now if I had bought 7 or 9 fish in one order, and they were all in the one box. IF they had all been in the 4-6 each range, or even mostly small, with an 8" or two fish, it may have been okay, but I think the smallest I got in that order was about 7-8" and the largest was 12"... That order was a disaster, but not all of it being the fault of NDK... the inner of the double bag leaked... so they were in next to no water... then add insult to injury, the flippin UPS guy walks up to the house TOSSING the box in the air as he walked... Thought for sure hubby was going to lay the guy out... The box is WELL MARKED with arrows and LIVE FISH... anyways, NDK was great about addressing my concerns... just in the future, if I order several fish, I will close out the order when *I* feel the box is FULL. I wanted to order a batch of 100 mixed babies (standard and butterfly), but have no place to put them at the moment. The thought was to grow the whole batch out, keep the favorites, and sell off the excess next year via Craigslist. May still do it yet, although I am getting nervous of the cold weather....

 

[CountryEscape]

Cape, I bought 7 form NDK and none of them were larger than I think 7", and the rest were in the 4-6" range. They were all fine in the box, but I never once thought about if they sent you 20 fish, that they would actually all be in the same box, especially if you purchased larger fish! I cannot imagine one 12" fish in the box I got, much less 7! Yikes!!! That is something that one of the sellers specifically says they will put up to a certain number of inches in each box, then you pay for another shipping cost. I cannot imagine that you would pay for one box if you got 100 fish, no matter the size! I ordered my koi and got them shipped in December last year. It was cold, so I decided to house them in the basement, set up a "kiddie pool" for their winter home. It was a blast, having them inside to check on daily, feed them, talk to them, I sure can see why Koi Guy has his inside all winter long! My set up was very temporary, but it worked very well. They are all doing very well in the koi pond now, too. As long as you acclimate them over a longer period of time to get them used to the colder water (have several coolers or large tubs ready when they arrive) they should be just fine. I would take a minimum of 2 hours to acclimate them over.
And, I would have been like your husband, ready to kill that UPS driver! What was he thinking??? That is likely when the bag burst, for goodness sake! And, at that size of fish, I wonder how they get them shipped without more fins piercing the bags. But, somehow they do it. Good luck!

 

[capewind]

I'll tell you Country, I was a bit worried about this order from the time it shipped. Once you receive the tracking number, not only can you track it, but it tells you the weight of the box. This package weighed 22 lbs. The reason I was worried was I got an order a few days before this one, TWO FISH... one at 14" and another at 8"... So with 7 or 9 fish, which ever it was, all in the same size range of the other order, for the box to only be 1 lbs heavier, well, you get what I was thinking... Same sized box. The leak was a large pin hole, not the type of leak that would all pour out in an hour... So cant blame UPS, but I wasnt mad at NDK either, as isnt the point of double bagging in case one leaks?

If we order a batch of babies, my concern with the weather is the shipping. I know they can use heat packs in the box, but nervous just the same. The babies would over winter inside,and that is where I am worried about space.

In the 750 gallon QT pond (basement) we have 34 koi and a few shubs... Presently 3-4"

In the 600 gallon plant pond (basement), I think there are 32 comets... a few still about 3" but most are solid at 4" amd a few close to 5"

In the 55 gallon tank in the kitchen, there are 44 fish (mostly koi, a couple of comets & shubs)... most about 2" with maybe 4 or 5 about 3"

In the 30 gallon in the family, another 26 fish (10-12 shubs, the rest comets) which are only 1 - 1.5"...

I was THRILLED to get the kiddie pool out of the kitchen (thanks to a road side find of the 55 gallon), and really dont want to set up another kiddie pool, even in the basement... SO my long winded concern is everyone I have now is going to grow... everyone inside now, will be staying inside until at least mid April.... So even if hubby builds more filters, just how many fish can we put into what we have now for inside containment????

 

[Fishylove]

Larkin the flagstone? What is the base? Crushed rock or concrete?

 

[CountryEscape]

Cape, I'd say you are overcrowded already, and I sure would not add any more at this point! Sounds like you need to find homes for what you have! But, where there is a will there is a way .... good luck!

 

[fishin4cars]

Larkin the flagstone? What is the base? Crushed rock or concrete?

Wendy, Concrete under this patio. had sand and crushed rock on the last house and hated fighting the weeds all the time.

 

[fishin4cars]

I'll tell you Country, I was a bit worried about this order from the time it shipped. Once you receive the tracking number, not only can you track it, but it tells you the weight of the box. This package weighed 22 lbs. The reason I was worried was I got an order a few days before this one, TWO FISH... one at 14" and another at 8"... So with 7 or 9 fish, which ever it was, all in the same size range of the other order, for the box to only be 1 lbs heavier, well, you get what I was thinking... Same sized box. The leak was a large pin hole, not the type of leak that would all pour out in an hour... So cant blame UPS, but I wasnt mad at NDK either, as isnt the point of double bagging in case one leaks?

If we order a batch of babies, my concern with the weather is the shipping. I know they can use heat packs in the box, but nervous just the same. The babies would over winter inside,and that is where I am worried about space.

In the 750 gallon QT pond (basement) we have 34 koi and a few shubs... Presently 3-4"

In the 600 gallon plant pond (basement), I think there are 32 comets... a few still about 3" but most are solid at 4" amd a few close to 5"

In the 55 gallon tank in the kitchen, there are 44 fish (mostly koi, a couple of comets & shubs)... most about 2" with maybe 4 or 5 about 3"

In the 30 gallon in the family, another 26 fish (10-12 shubs, the rest comets) which are only 1 - 1.5"...

I was THRILLED to get the kiddie pool out of the kitchen (thanks to a road side find of the 55 gallon), and really dont want to set up another kiddie pool, even in the basement... SO my long winded concern is everyone I have now is going to grow... everyone inside now, will be staying inside until at least mid April.... So even if hubby builds more filters, just how many fish can we put into what we have now for inside containment????

Capewind, I highly recommend NOT buying anymore new fish. EVERY thing your using is way over stocked. Even if your doing water changes daily your so heavily stocked that your going to cause some stunting of growth, and probably some side effects of overstocking including but not limited to Fin damage, easier transfer of Parasite outbreaks, and this time of year ammonia poisoning is extremely dangerous because of limited filtration. Be careful and monitor closely all water conditions.

 

[capewind]

Capewind, I highly recommend NOT buying anymore new fish. EVERY thing your using is way over stocked. Even if your doing water changes daily your so heavily stocked that your going to cause some stunting of growth, and probably some side effects of overstocking including but not limited to Fin damage, easier transfer of Parasite outbreaks, and this time of year ammonia poisoning is extremely dangerous because of limited filtration. Be careful and monitor closely all water conditions.

Larkin, you really think ALL of them are over stocked? I know the fish tanks are pushing it... If you wouldnt mind, I'll give more details on each set up, and you can tell me what you would change about it. We do have more tanks (4, 40 gallons, and another 55 gallon) in the basement, as well as four 60" kiddie pools (100 gallons each FULL, but I only usually fill to about 70 gallons) and some big liner scraps on hand too if we need to make changes... I know some changes were going to be needed as they grew but....

Okay, the 30 gallon tank... if we called all the comets and shubunkins 1.25" at present for an average, x 26 fish... that would be 32.5" fish in a 30 gallon tank. The filter IS small... only rated for 20 gallons, but have water hyacinths in there too... Ammonia and nitrites have been consistent at ZERO... Nitrate was up at 20 ppm. As soon as these guys are big enough to take a pellet (Tetra Granules) and dont need crushed food, they get moved up to another home ... Because of the crushed food, I clean this filter every 3-4 days.

The 55 is also well over stocked. I wanted to move the few (4 or 5) big guys (3") down stairs to the 750, but hubby has gotten them onto our regular food (Tetra Floating sticks), so was going to keep them here til they could manage the bigger food... To be a smart ass, last night, hubby gave these "big guys" some of the normal pellets, and they took them down with no problem, so they are going to get moved in the next day or two, so if we did 40 fish at 2", that is 80" of fish, in a 55 gallon tank... On the tank now are 2 filters... one rated at 70 gallons, and the other at 40... So 110 gallons for filtration... I have an extra 70 gallon filter that can be added if need be... I was cleaning their filters every 4-5 days, but have missed a lot, and the reality is more likely cleaned once a week. Ammonia/nitrite at ZERO, and nitrates also about 20 ppm (while the tank is new, we used their old water).

The 600 gallon plant pond... 32 comets, call all of them at 4" at present... So 128" of fish total... (ALL the inside comets were to end up here)... Filtration wise, not a lot... it's filtering 1000 gph and has ??? 75-80++++ plants. The parents of these babies are only 6-8", so THOUGHT I had plenty of room here, even without any extra filtration or plants??? Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all at zero...

The 750 gallon QT pond... just call all 34 at 4" and growing... Most are solid at 4" with a couple of shubs still closer to 3" but a couple of koi gaining on 5"... So at present (and to change LOL), 136" of fish... No plants, but just over 3000 gph in filitration... Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates, all at zero...

The oldest koi, comet and shub babies inside are growing evenly paced with the few comets still outside... atleast for now...

Unless there is a problem, I do NOT do water changes... water evaporation loss is replaced by water from the outside pond. Never had any parasites (knocking on wood, and have treated incoming fish just in case while in QT). Twice we did have ammonia spikes in the 750, but in both cases, there was instant overload, with brand new, uncycled water... When we brought in the 9 rescue fish (evenly sized 12 - 22") into the QT, ammonia did come up to nearly 1, but think the spawning may have played a roll in that;-) (The whole basement smelled like a bad fish market LOL)

Not for one second am I thinking your concerns are not valid, so asking where you see the biggest concerns, and suggestions to improve... also have a few more pumps on hand, so can build whatever...

And too late on the no more babies advice LOL.

If anyone wants to add input on this, please PM me so not to totally hijack this conversation,,,,

 

[fishin4cars]

I'll try and cover this as much as I can. First off your already admitting the tanks are over stocked, best thing to do is double up on filtration and air. Now for the ones in question. Looking at your post I assume you have read some literature somewhere of stocking rates of 1 inch of fish per gallon? Here is where that can become a BIG problem. Lets say you stock 30 neon tetras at 1" in a 30 gallon tank, VERY doable, they put off little waste, and stay about 1" in size. BUT would you get the same effect if you put a 30" koi in a 30 gallon tank? Of course not, You would end up with a dead fish. I also keep fish on the high population side. For example, 4-3"-4" fantails, and 6- 2" butterfly koi, a pleco, and a standard comet. twice this year I have found by water testing that the GH and KH had started dropping and the PH had started declining. WHY? overstocked and not enough water changes, I water change 25% every two weeks and check the water weekly. Now I didn't see any ammonia, nitrite, and very minimal nitrate. But over time the breakdown was still taking place. The butterfly koi in the tank are 2" the brothers and sisters to these fish that are in the pond are in the 7"-9" range. Again, I step back and ask why, is it because they have more room to swim, more food, cleaner water. IMO, because the water to fish ratio is 1/2 of what it is in the tank, so the fish grow better in more area, the water stays better because I filter the water through three times more media per gallon and 6 times more effectively per gallon. My tank is 75 gallons and I run a Canister filter, two Bio-wheel filters, and a under gravel filter with two 250 GPH powerhead pumps. The more crowded Koi and Comets/shubbies are kept the more stunting is noticeable IMO. I'm not saying your set ups will fail, although without regular water changes I do wonder how your keeping all your water parameters in check. What I a saying is at those stocking levels your NOT (Again IMO) going to get your maximum growth and it COULD cause additional health issues. Oh and anyone feel free to jump in, I would rather the tread get off topic than the discussion not to go forward. I think this is a common problem and hope others will speak up. This also leads to a question I have been asking myself recently, Can a pond be OVER filtered? My 10,000 gallon pond has 6 fish, I started cycling the pond back in July, I have yet gotten it to clear, I constantly get low ammonia, and nitrite readings, and the water stays pea soup green even with a UV light and my filters are rated for 12,500 gallons and I'm pushing 9,600 GPH through it, With 25 gallons of Bio-balls, four 36"x30" x 2" matala filter pads and all being pre-filtered through matala that is cleaned weekly and doing 25% water changes weekly now. This one has me puzzled, ONLY body of water on the property that I feel is under populated.

 

[capewind]

Getting late for me, so going to keep this one short... I dont know why my water parameters stay good, other than to say with the stock to filtration levels, it is working. I watch the 30 gallon and what was the kiddie pool/now is the 55 closely... Those two, I do feel that I am pushing the envelope, and move babies up to the 600 and 750 as they get big enough to handle those situations (aka filter intakes and bigger food).

This is the only thing I know for certain... itty bitty babies were started in 30 gallons, and moved up as they grew... I've changed a few "containers" but all started out in about 30 gallons of water... The oldest babies INSIDE, have grown consistently with the handful of OUTSIDE babies...

Maybe we are simply overthinking quanity to volume, and disregarding the help the plants and cleaning of filters is doing? Again, the 750 gallon set up is pushing nearly 3000 gph... hubby cleans it about every 2 weeks... the 650 gallon set up only has the 1000 gph, but he is cleaning that one daily thanks to all the LONG water hyacinth roots... gave them a hair cut, so hopefully that will get better (pruned the roots back from 18-24" to about 10")

As long as water parameters are good, no way no how will I do water changes without a damn good reason (such as spawning or precautionary meds for QT fish). Years ago, every time we did those MUST DO water changes in our MARINE/INVERT tanks, things would go wrong. Once that tank had been established, it was rare to even add a fish, so the bacterias were doing their job. Quit doing the water changes, and never another problem until Hurricane Bob (8 days no power or generator was devestating). I dont know if you have ever messed with inverts, but some species can be EXTREMELY touchy. Not only the water parameters, but some want to be xxx inches from the lights, or want indirect light only, or in direct current, or AWAY from current... if they werent happy, they were dead, no warnings or maybe's about it.

Another thing that MAY be helping is the replacement water always comes from the main pond. Low stock level (IMO) considering nearly 10,000 gallons of water (2 ponds connected... intake in one, discharges in the other)... This pond has only been set up since April, and ammonia, nitrites AND nitrates are all at zero still. Head count out there is roughly 40 koi evenly sized from 7-8" for the little guys, up to 22-23"... 7 or 8 shubunkins that I am guessing to be 7-8" (no more than a max of 9")... I think we still have 8 adult comets (placed a few) that are maybe 8-9" and one feeder goldfish that made it to 12" (not much is going to eat him now LOL)... I also tossed back a whole bunch of babies, of which I think there are about a dozen or so comets left, all about 4-5" now (memory is getting foggy, I think they were spawn in May). Filtration wise, we are not running much at all... One Laguna Filter Falls 5000 with an 8000 gph pump that was reduced down (split valve) until the point that it wasnt coming out the back of the box from too much flow... the filter falls is located in the upper pond, and water returns to the lower pond via water fall... the intake for the filter falls is in the lower pond... Back at the T from the 8000 gph pump, it runs raw/unfiltered water through a grossly undersized 40 watt UV to a small ornamental water fall in the lower pond... We also had a TON of water hyacinths (and a bunch of other plants). The cold has killed almost all of the water hyacinths in the lower pond, going to guess we still have 250? in the lower pond, but the upper pond gets a bit warmer water from the pump, and will guess maybe 500 water hyacinths are still alive (I know that sounds like a lot... about 90% of an 8 x 18' area has coverage in the upper pond)... Heck, the lilies (all hardies) are still pushing buds (weird year LOL).

I havent paid attention to how much water we are actually replacing... with the 30 gallon tank, I am going to guess I am adding about an inch every 7-10 days... It has been a week or so since I last added water, and it is down about an inch from where it should be... With the previous kiddie pool, I paid less attention... one of those things of when it became noticable, I'd grab a tote of water LOL... the 600 and 750, maybe once a month hubby grabs a hose with the pump and adds water... Havent actually added any to the 600 since it was built a month or so ago, and am going to guess that is needing a GOOD 2-3"...

 

[pond42sliders]

I'm the newbie around here, a little on the shy side and tend to be more emotional than most. I can only understand a fraction of what some of you are discussing here, but even if I did know what you all were talking about...I still would not know what to say. Because what I see is beauty beyond words...it almost brought tears to my eyes.
I'm in utter awe. Reading this thread and going through the pics has sealed the deal for me hanging out around here for a long...long while.
Thanks fishy...I'll probably be a turtle in my dreams tonight, and you know where I'll be...
Peace and Good Cheers,
Susan

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
There are good points threw out this forum.
The 1" fish load is a rule of thumb but it is not absolute by any means it is more of a guide to help.
And as always the type of fish needs to be taken in to consideration when this is applied.

I am 50 years old and have tanks all my life and experienced great pleasure and great disasters in those years.
Gold fish of any type IE carp has to be in the top 5 fish to keep healthy in a fish tank MHO
Because they although they are beautiful in so many respects they don't have stomachs they secrete a lot of poop/toxins
That being said in a tank that is stocked to the 1" rule and has great filtration and test out clean do's not equate to a healthy environment.

With a heavily stocked tank things could go bad rather quickly more so then a under stocked tank.
If you lose a filter well you are out at the store in a heavily stocked tank there is a greater chance that you will come home to a disaster, where in a less stocked tank they will be ok for a longer period of time.

One think I have noticed between inside tanks and outside ponds
Tanks are a inclosed enviroment ponds are not
With ponds you get evaporation and air exchange where with tanks that are covered you get less
With evaporation comes removal of toxins where in a tank you don't
In a tank you get evaporation but it is much less and the water and toxins hit the glass or canopy and trip back down nto really leaving the tank as much as it would in a pond.
Also we move much more water around then we do in our tank
In a pond we have pumps that are 1000 gallons of water a hour compared to what 250 plus it is getting pushed through the air via water falls fountains and on and on.
All leading to a better exchange then we could ever to get in a tank.

Water changes are to me and my experience a big part of fish keeping in a tank
Not only do's it remove toxins that we are not really testing for but it replaces minerals that have been used up and the fish need for there skin color slim and all around good health.

Right now I have my 100 G tropical
1 Angel she has to be 10 years old and body wise she is about 4 or 5 inch radius
10 or so Clownloches my biggest is Hurk over 10 inches smallest maybe 4 inchs
have a algea eater who is now big to
and a few other fish that my momory stalls on there names LOL
but it is heated
Has live plants
3 300 gph power heads with filers on them
3 Fluvals 405 canisters
and I enject co2 for the plants
I do feel I am a little over stocked even with all the filtration. I mean the 404 a are rated for 70 gallon tanks.

But even with that and all the perimeters being at 0 if I don't do a water change once a weeks of 25 percent or so
I see a difference in my fish rather quickly even with all perimeters being at zero.
My clownloches color is a little faded
the angel fins seem a little frayed they are not as active.
I do a water change and the fish are very very happy and they look great.

So that tells me that water changes are a big part of fish keeping in a tank.

As I have said I see people get away with over stocking a lot but with out water changes it never goes well for the fish they either get weak and sick or worse.

Again MHO
Ruben

 

[sissy]

Thing about this pond forum you learn as you go and I only knew small amounts before I joined and now know tons and learning everyday .Lots of the more technical stuff I don't under stand and try but fail so I keep it simple so i can understand .I sure am not a pond expert but have not lost a fish yet .Oh wait let me check the pond they may have gotten fed up with my neglect lately and ran away . I just have fun ponding and that's what it should be .

 

[capewind]

Great post Ruben, but I do think the most important aspect to consider are the variables, and you brought up some great ones with the comparison/observation between inside/outside ponds.

I am *not* being arguementative at all, but it may almost sound as if, so want to be clear LOL. Sometimes with the written conversations, they are not interputed as they would be a verbal conversation.

Let's take my 30 gallon tank as a victim to attack, as IMO, it is the one we have most stocked, under powered, etc I liked your anology of a covered tank, and see merit there. It made sense, but then what about all the variables?

This tank is only "covered" about 35% (the strip of glass the light sits on). I have about an inch or so of evaporation per week at this point. At one inch, I am adding 2 gallons per week (tank is 15" high), so 7% new water just in keeping the tank full. Now that is not REMOVING any water... Now what about the plants? In this tank, it is just one small water hyacinth that takes up about 25% of the surface area. What, if anything, does it add as a benefit? I rinse this filter about every 3-5 days. Most of the time I am really good about doing it every few days, but it has gone 5-6 days a couple of times. Filter size is marginal (rated for a 20-30 gallon tank wihich is too small no matter how you look at it). How about the airline with a 4" disc disfussor, does that do anything? In reference to an outside pond, we do not run carbon, ammo chips, etc outside, but DO in the inside tank(s)... What variables does that change?

Yet another viable I was recently learning a little bit about was the differences in water around the country. Well water, town water, soft water, hard water, mineral content, etc... How do these factors play into the equassion?

My point is the average inside fish tank, does have a tight fitting lid, plastic plants, and God only knows if the filters EVER get rinsed. And IF rinsed, HOW? Take it over to a sink and blast under hot water? or swirl it about in a bowl of tank water? Do people just throw them out and pop a new caartridge in? How often are the carbon and/or ammo chips changed? Do most folks even use an airstone? What about declorination of added water? Do most folks use a product like Start Right? Or are the fish getting straight from the tap, into the tank? Do the variables change any if the replacement water comes from an outside pond with low stock and high plant counts?

So while I am not questioning your experiences or opinions, I am wondering HOW all the variables play in here? Does anyone have a study that documents the chemical studies of pond/tank water in various situations, with light to high population loads, feeding practices, filtration rates, etc???

These are real questions I am asking. Where is it set in stone at what percentile water should be exchanged at? I also wonder about the potential problems with changing out so much water, so often. For example, my water straight from the tap has a PH value of 7.0. I try to stay at 7.4 - 7.6. So would that mean I would regularly need to use a product such as PH Up? Baking Soda? How do the use of these products effect the KH/GH? (I still get lost on these.) To keep my PH where I want it to be, I am using Crushed Coral (in a 30 gallon tank, it's only about half a cup worth).

Where is the line between not doing enough, or doing too much?

This subject truly makes me dizzy LOL. Evaluating water quality makes me think of commercially grown vegetables. Sure, eat your veggies to be healthy, yet farm lands have been so over used, natural minerals have been deleted, or worse, replaced with manmade products. That's okay, we can all just take a pill (vitiman) to fix what shouldnt need fixing (lack of nutrients) LOL.

 

[capewind]

Also Ruben, I am not so sure I am getting what you were addressing when you say pond pumps are 1000 gph, and tank pumps are 250 gph...

Most people believe the outside pond should be flipped once to twice per hour. Outside, our pond is just under 10,000 gallons, and only have a temp 8000 gph pump on it, so know we are running on the low side, but am not worried about it due to the entire picture.

I just looked up the filters on the 55, simply because I know the names/models of them without looking... One filter is rated for 70 gallon tanks with 300 gph (Aquaclear), which flips the tank nearly five and a half times per hour, and the other says for 20-40 gallon tanks with 170 gph (Whisper 40i), which flips the tank three times per hour... So combined, they are flowing 470 gallons per hour, or flipping the tank nearly NINE TIMES per hour.,,, I am going to assume the higher rates are due to assumed, higher populations than what folks generally put in ponds???