New Pond planning. Need help to choose

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Hi Everybody.
I'm completely new to ponds, fish etc. Planning to have a contractor to build my first pond and getting mixed advise. Pond would be about 8 x 11, liner. Planning to have few mixed fish - goldfish and may be few Koi. That's were three contractors divert - filtration.
  1. Contractor 1 offers to build traditional setup with 4' stream, waterfall, skimmer box from the kit. About 2.5 feet deep. The least expensive.
  2. Contractor 2 wants to build pond with bog filter placed inside the pond. Use Vault for bog, 4 Large Aquablox. Area with bog about 2' under water and the rest of the pond 3' deep. Also suggests Ionizer. No skimmer Said plants can placed anywhere in the pond not necessarily in the bog. Form my reading on the bog filters I thought it's always a separate area with few inches of water and filled with plants.
  3. Last contractor want to build separate bog 4 x 6 with 10' stream to the pond. Use 6 large Aquablox and still leave the skimmer. The most expensive option.
I'm leaning to option 2 , but want to check if "in pond" bog that deep in the pond may not be as effective and defeats the purpose. Bog option promises less maintenance and cleanup, clearer water. I attached the location where I plan the pond. Starting on top under Japanese maple and going slightly under bridge. Any feedback, ideas are welcome.
 

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moldovan said:
Bog option promises less maintenance and cleanup, clearer water. I attached the location where I plan the pond. Starting on top under Japanese maple and going slightly under bridge. Any feedback, ideas are welcome.
This is a tough one. Basically, and I mean basically because there's not enough detail to know much, I would see all 3 choices as basically the same.

I think there is a bottom line in ponds, and pretty much everything else, people who build ponds build a certain kind of pond. Building ponds for profit means building something you can make money on. Customers drive this. Customers like to see tangible "things" on a bid. Like the Aquablox. It's something customers can Google and understand. Contractors make money on things like that. There's nothing bad about it's just the way the world works. Is the cost of the Aquablox needed? Of course not (as far as I can tell).

What you probably can't do is find out the Aquablox isn't needed and going the contractor and expect him to cut the cost by the retail price of the Aquablox. That's part of his profit. In general many pond builders just build ponds and have absolutely no understanding of ponds beyond how to get them to hold water long enough to get paid. Again, not as bad as I'm making it sound, ponds really aren't super complicated. There's not really any reason why a pond builder would ever need to know how a pond works beyond "put this here".

They probably use the Aquablox when building pondless waterfalls and figure why not put it into a pond.

So my advice is to pick the pond you aesthetically like the best.

DIY Pond
This is more of a DIY forum. Many people in your shoes come to forums like this a few years after the pond is in looking for fixes to problems. You're pretty usual for checking into it before hand. But this is why it's going to be confusing. DIY is way different. Different filters, different building methods. And within that space there is a wide range of what people consider "good" or "bad".

It has to be driven by your goals. Otherwise it's a confusing mess. If you say you want 10 goldfish in your pond you have a set of options. And a couple of Koi...entire other set of options. When I built ponds for people I spent 2 or 3 hours talking to try and figure out their desires. These aren't so easy to express I've found.

Filters
Filters are super simple, but people make them super complex. Filters remove stuff. Simple. Do you have a filter in your house for removing feathers? NO! You should get one. Oh, you don't have a feather problem? Well you could in the future so don't you want to protect yourself, family, dog, cat? Don't you love them?

I just happen to sell them. Now, which model do you want. I have Small, Med and Large. How do you pick which size? That's easy. Base it on how much you love your family.

That's silly right? Welcome to pond filters.

Pond filters should be picked for a specific problem...a problem that can be measured. A pond that tests 0 for ammonia on a regular basis isn't going to have lower ammonia if a bio filter is added. But a pond testing ammonia can benefit.

Clear water
It's the number one thing people want. Kind of like loving your family, it's always a good thing. So surprise, surprise, guess what every single filter being sold on the market today do...give you clear water. Do you want Small, Med or Large?

The reality is there isn't a single single in the world that produces "clear water".

Actually controlling a pond to clear water isn't super complex, but there are degrees. More clear = more complex.

For example, is almost guaranteed that your new pond will turn green within a month. It's a good bet. A UV filter is 100% effective in stopping this, giving you "clear". People may not be able to agree on what "clear" means but a green pond sure isn't it. If your builders are specing UV and you're talking about wanting clear water there is a problem...or there is going to be a problem.

#2 speced Ionizer (ion generator) which in theory would do the same job as the UV. There are some issues with ion generators. The main issue is they were never intended to be used in ponds so they don't actually keep a pond clear. They were introduced into swimming pools years ago as a way to reduce chemical use, less chlorine. Ion generators require fairly clear water in order to "work". It can kill a small amount of algae, but needs the chlorine to keep the amount down to a level the ion generator could handle. They've now fallen out of favor in the swimming pool market and in the past year or two they've been looking for suckers in the pond market.

This doesn't mean I think builder #2 is cheating you. He probably is that sucker the ion makers are looking for. Builders don't need to understand ponds, just what customers want to hear. And ion generators have a great pitch...they sound like magic.

UV is proven and inexpensive. All 3 of these pond builders may not even know what a UV filter is even though it's very common. Many pond builder were mowing lawns for a living last week....and will be again next week. Just the way it is.

Bog filter
The term "bog" in the context of ponds is a completely made up term and therefore can mean pretty much anything. The one underwater one to me might be called a gravel bed filter, or a whatever. Specifically it is a "static submerged media bio filter". Break it down. "static" means it doesn't move. That means muck settles on it so not good for the good bacteria. "submerged" means it doesn't get a lot of O2, not good. "media" just means the material, the gravel. "bio filter" means it converts waste from living creatures like fish and other things living in your pond.

The waste bio converts is specifically ammonia and nitrite. That's it. People will say it "keeps pond clean", "keeps water clear", etc. Whatever they want to believe. But ammonia and nitrite are clear.

People will say "oh your pond is green, you need a bio filter". Well algae consume ammonia directly. They prefer ammonia over nitrate because it's easier for them to use. Algae is a bio filter. They remove ammonia. A green pond will have 0 ammonia. Adding a bio filter will do nothing.

Bio filtering is normally done by a few species of bacteria that are everywhere. Inside pipes, your pump, on the liner. The question of whether you need to build more homes for the bacteria is purely a function of how much ammonia there is. That's found with a simple test kit. There are some general guidelines. Like if you said you wanted to add 10 full grown Koi on day one we know you'd need serious bio filters. If you're adding 10 tiny goldfish you don't need any bio filter beyond what the pond will already provide.

A bog filter outside of the pond is the same deal with the added feature of being a "settling tank". Over time, like 2,3,4,10 years after the pond is built decomposing stuff will start to appear suspended in the water. This can make water less clear. A settling tank's job is to allow that suspended matter to fall out of the water column. Doesn't trap it, just makes the water so calm the matter falls and stays.

Bog vs whatever
Which is a better car, a Toyota Prius or a Telsa Roadster? Silly question, they have different purposes.

Bogs are not good bio filters. Meaning that pond for pound they don't convert as much ammonia as other filters. But the question should be will it work well enough for your pond. Probably. No way to really tell without testing the water for ammonia. The "may be few Koi" leaves that question up in the air. How much food you plan to feed is the actual way to predict.

Settling tanks are not the best filters for removing suspended waste. Mainly because the waste isn't removed. It continues to decompose into such small bits that it once again becomes part of the water column. In that form we call it DOCs (dissolved organic compounds or carbon). It acts like soap and you come out to the pond one morning and see soap foam floating on the surface. I don't like the look of it myself.

It is what it is
I wanted to explain one thing...this can be very complex or very simple. The middle ground is where it gets weird. If you try and figure out a little bit you're likely to get fed a bunch of myths and all will be very confusing and make little logical sense. Unfortunately there's not a single book to explain it in 10 words or less.

So imo I suggest one of two paths.

1. Hire which ever builder you like and enjoy whatever comes your way.

2. If you're interested in the hobby dive in. Build the pond yourself even if you hire out the labor.

Splitting the difference just seems to drive people crazy and unhappy. Been in pond forums for 10-15 years, see it like once a day.
 
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moldovan said:
Hi Everybody.
First of all, welcome to the group:)

moldovan said:
I'm completely new to ponds, fish etc. Planning to have a contractor to build my first pond and getting mixed advise.
You will find that with contractors, as well as group members. Group members however are not looking to make a profit, so can tell you what works FOR THEM. Every single pond is a different ecosystem ... too many variables.

moldovan said:
Pond would be about 8 x 11, liner. Planning to have few mixed fish - goldfish and may be few Koi. That's were three contractors divert - filtration.
  1. Contractor 1 offers to build traditional setup with 4' stream, waterfall, skimmer box from the kit. About 2.5 feet deep. The least expensive.
  2. Contractor 2 wants to build pond with bog filter placed inside the pond. Use Vault for bog, 4 Large Aquablox. Area with bog about 2' under water and the rest of the pond 3' deep. Also suggests Ionizer. No skimmer Said plants can placed anywhere in the pond not necessarily in the bog. Form my reading on the bog filters I thought it's always a separate area with few inches of water and filled with plants.
  3. Last contractor want to build separate bog 4 x 6 with 10' stream to the pond. Use 6 large Aquablox and still leave the skimmer. The most expensive option.
I'm leaning to option 2 , but want to check if "in pond" bog that deep in the pond may not be as effective and defeats the purpose.
First, I say START OVER. Give which ever contractors you like a chance BUT decide the LOOK and CARE LEVEL that YOU WANT. Some or all of them may be decent folks, but YOU are the one not only paying for it, but LOOKING at it. How would YOU like YOUR YARD to LOOK???

The one thing I would suggest is being in PA, that your pond is at least 3' deep, 4' even better.

moldovan said:
Bog option promises less maintenance and cleanup,
Define less maintenence. We have a bog (really, it's just a partial bog, hubby hasnt finish filling it with gravel yet) and I happen to like bogs BUT they are "work" to a degree. Do YOU like planting items, and occasionally pruning or splitting plants? If you like doing that sort of thing, you wont find a bog to be much work, If you hate gardening, a bog may not be a good fit for you, unless you want to pay someone to take care of the plants.
 

callingcolleen1

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I would go bigger and get option 3! Bigger is better and most all pond people always wish their pond was bigger! If you are getting koi, bigger for sure if money not is big concern... :)

Good luck with the contractors!
 

HTH

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callingcolleen1 said:
I would go bigger and get option 3! Bigger is better and most all pond people always wish their pond was bigger! If you are getting koi, bigger for sure if money not is big concern... :)

Good luck with the contractors!
I agree.
 
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Hi Everybody.
I'm completely new to ponds, fish etc. Planning to have a contractor to build my first pond and getting mixed advise. Pond would be about 8 x 11, liner. Planning to have few mixed fish - goldfish and may be few Koi. That's were three contractors divert - filtration.
  • Contractor 1 offers to build traditional setup with 4' stream, waterfall, skimmer box from the kit. About 2.5 feet deep. The least expensive.
  • Contractor 2 wants to build pond with bog filter placed inside the pond. Use Vault for bog, 4 Large Aquablox. Area with bog about 2' under water and the rest of the pond 3' deep. Also suggests Ionizer. No skimmer Said plants can placed anywhere in the pond not necessarily in the bog. Form my reading on the bog filters I thought it's always a separate area with few inches of water and filled with plants.
  • Last contractor want to build separate bog 4 x 6 with 10' stream to the pond. Use 6 large Aquablox and still leave the skimmer. The most expensive option.
I'm leaning to option 2 , but want to check if "in pond" bog that deep in the pond may not be as effective and defeats the purpose. Bog option promises less maintenance and cleanup, clearer water. I attached the location where I plan the pond. Starting on top under Japanese maple and going slightly under bridge. Any feedback, ideas are welcome.
If your going to keep koi I dont think these contractors know their stuff, koi require to safely over winter 4 ft minimum depth to 5 ft maximum anything shallower where koi are concerned is a great big waste of money, why because these are the depth's koi can safely over winter.
Our own pond is at the minimum end of the scale at 4ft it is an above ground one which is heavily insulated as is the filter housing we also use Polycarbonate sheeting to cover the pond in the winter heating the filter housing not the water this in turn warms the water up.
We use a small 800 watt oil heated radiator for that purpose on its lowest setting, when the oil gets to heat the radiator cuts out then allows the oil loose its heat then fires up again at that set temperature.


rgrds

Dave
 

sissy

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You don't say how much they want to charge .Building a pond your self is easy and gives you a since of accomplishment and makes you fill like i can do anything now .Go for your own sore muscles and save some money and feel good about it .You will love it better that way .
 

Mmathis

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No opinion on your options [I'm a newbie myself], but I will comment that you want your pond to be as deep as possible, especially if you have koi. Two and a half feet isn't very deep. "Deep" is good 'cause it gives the fish a cool place to escape summer heat, and depth to avoid winter freezes. And koi need it because they get big and need the room.
 
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"Bog vs whatever
Which is a better car, a Toyota Prius or a Telsa Roadster? Silly question, they have different purposes.

Bogs are not good bio filters. Meaning that pond for pound they don't convert as much ammonia as other filters. But the question should be will it work well enough for your pond. Probably. No way to really tell without testing the water for ammonia. The "may be few Koi" leaves that question up in the air. How much food you plan to feed is the actual way to predict."

Yes bogs are not good bio filters they are best at dealing with end result of proper bio filtration and that is nitrogen . The plants in the bog use the nitrogen removing it from the pond.They are not "the filtration system " but can be part of the system . Average ponder deals with nitrogen with water changes.With a big enough bog no water changes needed, nature does it every day in natural water systems .
 
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Thank you for all your comments! It's a bit overwhelming.

I thought I would define better my goals as few suggested:
I have no problem with cleaning of the pond. I have a pool which I care, clean by myself. One issue with standard skimmers and one of the reason I look at the bog is that loosing some water due to evaporation will stop water flowing into skimmer, stop circulation and can burn the pump. In pool I'm facing the same issue but I just keep automatic refill. I know there are refills for ponds, but I want more control of how much chlorinated water gets into the pond or detect if any leaks. In general "bog" seems more natural way of filtering.

Another point is that I'm not looking to become a Koi breeder. I like them, but if I can't have them I'll settle with gold fish alone. I can try couple small Koi and see if they like my pond. I'm more after looks and mosquito control in terms of fish. I hope to feed them minimally or not at all and strive for self feeding environment. ( I was told that Ionizer works as sort of "birth control" for fish. They are OK with it but do not breed that much.)
I know about UV but was told by several contractors wait with installing it until the whole eco-system stabilizes. It can be easily retrofired later if indeed needed.

Do you think bog should be combined with other type of filter, skimmer or can be the only filtration in the pond? Interested in more feedback from "bog" filter owners, any regrets or caveats.
 

sissy

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I love my koi but wish some one had told me how fussy they can be and how big they can get .( years and over 2 ft. long when they were only a couple of inches long when I got them .Gold fish do breed alot and I like ,no love my fantails ,they are slow and funny to watch
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:54089]
 
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If I was you, and not exactly sure what sort of pond I wanted, I'd try and find out if there are any pond tours in your area, if you can get on a tour talk to the owners and ask how their filter systems works and find out what their cleaning schedule is like. It wouldn't hurt to look at some of the ponds the contractors have completed as well.
 

sissy

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you tube has great pond ideas and show builds of ponds and could be a great source of ideas .I watch the video's on there all the time .Your contractors may even have video's on there too .I have seen plenty of them on there .The only thing I don't like is there rocks and gravel on the bottom which i try to ignore that part .
 
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moldovan said:
Thank you for all your comments! It's a bit overwhelming.
It's a serious problem that happens a lot. For most people a pond is just a landscape feature, and they come to a pond forum and WHAM.

I was trying to address that in my previous post. Get the pond that's cheapest, or you just like the look of or the builder you like the most and enjoy. By far most pond owners are in that camp. I'm reading the exact same thing happening in another pond forum, a much more serious forum, where the poster is being scared to death with all kinds of stuff the poster doesn't want to know about.

moldovan said:
I have no problem with cleaning of the pond. I have a pool which I care, clean by myself. One issue with standard skimmers and one of the reason I look at the bog is that loosing some water due to evaporation will stop water flowing into skimmer, stop circulation and can burn the pump. In pool I'm facing the same issue but I just keep automatic refill. I know there are refills for ponds, but I want more control of how much chlorinated water gets into the pond or detect if any leaks. In general "bog" seems more natural way of filtering.
For auto fill on a pond I use a regular float valve but the water supply comes from a sprinkler valve on a timer. I set the timer to turn on for a few minutes each day. So if the float valve fails, and they do, the max amount of water isn't very much. Sprinkler valves can fail too, but very rare to be stuck on. Normally they fail to turn off. No chlorione Your builders didn't spec this because...

moldovan said:
In general "bog" seems more natural way of filtering.
Then that's what you should get. People often buy things that are "natural", it makes them feel good. You're buying this pond to feel good right? Yes, bogs aren't the best filter...but the best filter means lots and lots of learning. And then more learning. If you have no interest in going down that path then don't. Going a little way down the path is only going to be confusing and frustrating and no fun. And the result is going to be the same.

The only other choice would be to hire a serious pond builder who could make all the best decisions for you. But the cost could be 2 or 3 times as much. And these types of builders are extremely hard to find and many cities don't have any. Plus you'd still have to learn a bunch of stuff, just less.

moldovan said:
Another point is that I'm not looking to become a Koi breeder. I like them, but if I can't have them I'll settle with gold fish alone. I can try couple small Koi and see if they like my pond. I'm more after looks and mosquito control in terms of fish. I hope to feed them minimally or not at all and strive for self feeding environment.
Stick to the goldfish. No reason to kill Koi and if you believe in Karma it's a bad thing. Goldfish will have a chance and a way better chance than they have as feeder fish.

moldovan said:
( I was told that Ionizer works as sort of "birth control" for fish. They are OK with it but do not breed that much.)
That's a new one. Buying an ionizer will put a few hundred bucks in the builder's pocket. If he thought you'd believe it would pick winning lotto numbers for you he would tell you that too. Again, he may not be a liar, he may just be repeating what the ionizer salesman told him to say. I assume he just doesn't know anything about ponds, or care.

Ionizers put copper into the water. Copper at high enough levels will kill algae. It's also toxic to fish, but if levels are low enough the fish can live. So I suppose maybe a person could make up the claim that if we poison you fish enough so that they don't breed, but not so much that they're killed, then yes, an ionizer could reduce breeding. But in the world of reality...it's BS.

moldovan said:
I know about UV but was told by several contractors wait with installing it until the whole eco-system stabilizes. It can be easily retrofired later if indeed needed.
Sure. Do you think they make more money coming out on a separate call? You betcha.

A top of the line UV for your pond is about $175, a lower end unit about $130. Installation cost during the build is almost nothing the way these guys install them, normally inside a "combo filter". A separate trip, take apart the current system, I'm guessing $100 minimum in labor. In any case get the cost of easily retrofired in writing. That will tell you if what they consider "ease" and you consider "ease" is the same thing. At least you wouldn't be surprised and could make an informed choice.

It is true ponds can often clear on their own. And a stream increases those odds imo. The question is really only your personal tastes. Some people freak out when the pond goes green and start dumping all kinds of crap into the pump sometimes killing the fish and never clearing the pond. And spend way more than a UV would cost. Some people just chill. The question is whether $200-300 in added cost is worth the risk of seeing green for some period. I would put the odds of having a green pond within the first month at about 70-90%. And the odds of clearing after a couple more months at about 20% without the stream and maybe 50-60% with the stream. Total made up guesses and no data at all to back that up. Just my only slightly informed opinion.

BTW, when a UV is added after the pond is green it's harder for the UV to clear it, which can mean a larger unit. When all that algae dies you get little dead algae suspended in the water and a bunch on the bottom which can lead to an extra cleaning. To me, a hobbyist waiting to add UV is no big deal. They don't mind all the complications. When I installed a pond it got a UV. Why in the world would I ever want a customer to see a green pond, even for a day? For $200 the problem goes away, the customer is happy. That's worth $200 imo to me as a builder who cares whether a customer is going to happy or not.


moldovan said:
Do you think bog should be combined with other type of filter, skimmer or can be the only filtration in the pond? Interested in more feedback from "bog" filter owners, any regrets or caveats.
There are only 2 answers to this question. No and yes. Both are correct for different ponds. You've already said you're OK with adding Koi and if they die they die. No big deal. That's fine, not judging, I've killed tons of fish. Well then you don't need any filters fish wise.

As far as cleaning the way your type of pond is normally maintained is once a year you hire someone to come, drain it, shop vac and power wash it, fill it and add new fish or any that they saved. Cost about $400-1000 per. That how the biggest pond builder does it. Most common pond by far.

As far as playing the odds, with no UV I would pick stream over bog. Both are fine. A stream is a bio filter, and one of the best. It's natural too.

BTW, just to qualify for answering, I ran a bog for more than 5 years. Here's a pic.
canna1.jpg
 

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