New Pond Syndrome?

[joesandy1822]

We finished digging our pond and filled it with water about 2 1/2 weeks ago. It's 3,000 gallons. The bio filter is a large filter falls unit. The media I'm using is one Matala pad, some green scrubbies, some plastic poultry fencing, and some tulle (netting). We have a skimmer. About a week ago I stocked the pond with 25 small comet goldfish and 9 small shubunkins. The pond turned to pea soup about 4 days ago. It is in full sun a good part of the day, but towards late afternoon and evening, it gets about 70% shade from tree cover. I have 5 potted water lilies (still fairly new), one parrot feather, one cattail, one water clover, 10 very small hyacinths, a pickerel weed, a new clump of sweet flag, and about 30 submerged bunches of hornwort. Since I've added the fish, I've lost a significant number of the goldfish. The shubunkins seem fine.

I tested the water this afternoon. The pH was 8.4, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates 0. Am I understanding correctly that since I see no reading on any of these elements, my biofilter has not kicked in AT ALL yet? I know this is a very low stocking level for 3,000 gallons, but I would think by now I would see something reading above 0. I've lost about 8 or 10 goldfish so far, and they seemed healthy enough when I put them in. So I'm trying to understand the reason for the fish deaths. Again, the shubunkins are still ok.

One thing I did not do (maybe a newbie mistake) was to rinse my new liner before filling the pond. And I am pretty frugal, so I did not drain the pond and refill. It never even occurred to me to do that until I read that some people do it to get the sand out that got kicked in from construction. I figured it would get much worse, so why bother? Do you think the liner not being rinsed could be poisoning the fish?

Also, will I know my bio filter is "working" when I see nitrates registering? From keeping aquariums, this was a sure sign that my filter was cycled. Is it the same for a pond? Do I just have new pond syndrome? I know the green water is most likely suspended algae. I know patience is the best cure. I just want to be sure I'm not missing something. Maybe I jumped the gun on adding fish? Should have waited longer?

Forgot to mention, I did use a chlorine/chloramine remover a few days after I filled the pond, BEFORE adding fish.

Thanks for any advice.

Sandy

 

[dieselplower]

Too many fish at one time. I'd expect half the feeders to die no matter what you do. Hopefully they don't transmit whatever killed them to the shubis. I would have kept them apart for a while.

 

[JohnHuff]

If you have aquariums, then you know exactly what the ammonia means. The bio-filter hasn't kicked in yet. The cycle is the same. I'm actually pretty amazed that 34 fish in a 3000g pond could produce that much ammonia. It'd be the equivalent of 1 fish in a 55g tank.

 

[joesandy1822]

If you have aquariums, then you know exactly what the ammonia means. The bio-filter hasn't kicked in yet. The cycle is the same. I'm actually pretty amazed that 34 fish in a 3000g pond could produce that much ammonia. It'd be the equivalent of 1 fish in a 55g tank.

Huh? 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. There was NO ammonia. Maybe you were reading the pH?

 

[joesandy1822]

Too many fish at one time. I'd expect half the feeders to die no matter what you do. Hopefully they don't transmit whatever killed them to the shubis. I would have kept them apart for a while.

If it was too many fish, wouldn't there be some ammonia? The ammonia is at 0.

 

[HTH]

He has green water which is consuming the ammonia, for a new pond green water is a good thing!. Thus 0 0 0 make sense.

The feeders died because they are expected to. Insert standard rant against using un-quarantined feeders here.

When the bio filter kicks in the water will clear. In the mean time use some quilt batting to keep it from getting too dense. You may have to change it frequently but it can be rinsed out a few times if you are careful with it.

 

[crsublette]

We finished digging our pond and filled it with water about 2 1/2 weeks ago. It's 3,000 gallons. The bio filter is a large filter falls unit. The media I'm using is one Matala pad, some green scrubbies, some plastic poultry fencing, and some tulle (netting). We have a skimmer. About a week ago I stocked the pond with 25 small comet goldfish and 9 small shubunkins. The pond turned to pea soup about 4 days ago. It is in full sun a good part of the day, but towards late afternoon and evening, it gets about 70% shade from tree cover. 1) I have 5 potted water lilies (still fairly new), one parrot feather, one cattail, one water clover, 10 very small hyacinths, a pickerel weed, a new clump of sweet flag, and about 30 submerged bunches of hornwort. Since I've added the fish, I've lost a significant number of the goldfish. The shubunkins seem fine.

2) I tested the water this afternoon. The pH was 8.4, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates 0. Am I understanding correctly that since I see no reading on any of these elements, my biofilter has not kicked in AT ALL yet? 3) I know this is a very low stocking level for 3,000 gallons, but I would think by now I would see something reading above 0. 4) I've lost about 8 or 10 goldfish so far, and they seemed healthy enough when I put them in. So I'm trying to understand the reason for the fish deaths. Again, the shubunkins are still ok.

One thing I did not do (maybe a newbie mistake) was to rinse my new liner before filling the pond. And I am pretty frugal, so I did not drain the pond and refill. It never even occurred to me to do that until I read that some people do it to get the sand out that got kicked in from construction. I figured it would get much worse, so why bother? 5) Do you think the liner not being rinsed could be poisoning the fish?

6) Also, will I know my bio filter is "working" when I see nitrates registering? From keeping aquariums, this was a sure sign that my filter was cycled. Is it the same for a pond? Do I just have new pond syndrome? I know the green water is most likely suspended algae. I know patience is the best cure. I just want to be sure I'm not missing something. 7) Maybe I jumped the gun on adding fish? Should have waited longer?

8) Forgot to mention, I did use a chlorine/chloramine remover a few days after I filled the pond, BEFORE adding fish.

Thanks for any advice.

Sandy

1) I have 5 potted water lilies (still fairly new), one parrot feather, one cattail, one water clover, 10 very small hyacinths, a pickerel weed, a new clump of sweet flag, and about 30 submerged bunches of hornwort.

Very good! Those should help out once they get acclimated to the water. Until they get acclimated, they're only going to absorb just what they need to simply survive the transition. Back when I did plants in my pond, it took about 1~2 months until they finally indicated good growth. Once they start growing, you will notice improvement in your water quality.


2) I tested the water this afternoon. The pH was 8.4, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and nitrates 0. Am I understanding correctly that since I see no reading on any of these elements, my biofilter has not kicked in AT ALL yet?

I would strongly encourage you to get a KH test kit. For detailed info as to why, then check out the thread, remedial water chemistry and treatment.

When testing pH, you are being reactive to problems that may occur.

When testing KH, your are being proactive to problems that may occur. Also, KH is the carbon fuel source for your bacteria to thrive. The higher KH value helps to form a faster bacteria colony

Since your pH is 8.4 and you have kept aquariums, then, I assume your KH is of proper ammount, but this is not always true since KH is simply the measurement of all buffering present. To make sure, do you know what your KH value is ??

I looked up the weather for Shelby Township, Michigan. It looks like your water temperature might be around maybe... 70~75*F ?? If so, this is good enough for decent bacteria growth.

Do you have any air diffusors in your bio-filter?? The extra air and agitation will also help increase the bacteria growth. If you don't, then you can put an aquarium air stone in your bio-filter.

Can you share the results of your municipalities water test values ?? These results tell quite a bit about your waters source and will indicate if you have enough calcium and magnesium since both will also boost the growth or the lack thereof will slow down bacteria growth.


3) I know this is a very low stocking level for 3,000 gallons, but I would think by now I would see something reading above 0.

Under absolutely optimum environmental conditions without the dosage of bottled bacteria, the fastest I have seen a complete nitrification cycle was 5 days and the water in this scenario was being significantly dosed with a high level of ammonia.

In your situation, without knowing anymore information than what's already provided here. my best guess is it is most definitely going to take longer than a week.

Due to the algae also interfering with the bacteria by consuming the ammonia, it may likely take a month possibly. It might be sooner or longer, but it is not unreasonable that nitrates have not shown up yet. Due to your plants and the very low fish stock density, you may never notice any nitrates.


4) I've lost about 8 or 10 goldfish so far, and they seemed healthy enough when I put them in. So I'm trying to understand the reason for the fish deaths.

It's anybodies best guess. Often, feeder comet goldfish are food for other fish so they're not necessarily always kept in the best of health at the store. However, some folk have had great luck and others not so much.


5) Do you think the liner not being rinsed could be poisoning the fish?

Never heard of such of a thing, but, as some would suggest otherwise, I don't know everything !!


6) Also, will I know my bio filter is "working" when I see nitrates registering? From keeping aquariums, this was a sure sign that my filter was cycled. Is it the same for a pond? Do I just have new pond syndrome?

Due to the algae present, your plants, and the very low fish stock density, you may never notice any nitrates.

Yep, when we are talking fundamentals, ponds are essentially just outdoor aquariums. The basic fundamentals are always constant. The only variables different between ponds and aquariums is the chemical synthesis when dosing the water, pond's greater surface area and evaporation, increased contaminants in ponds, and the materials and methodologies will vary according to the ecosystem's context. However, yes, the basic fundamentals still remain the same.

"New pond syndrome" is a constant battle for young ponds depending upon how filtration was built and prepped. Your pond will experience much more terbulence due to weather that your aquarium would never experience. Things do get better once the ponds get properly "seasonsed" as long as ya don't do anything silly!!


7) Maybe I jumped the gun on adding fish? Should have waited longer?

Yes and no. Personally, I would have done things different, but that doesn't matter now. This is the situation now and I think you are doing pretty dang good so far.


8) Forgot to mention, I did use a chlorine/chloramine remover a few days after I filled the pond, BEFORE adding fish.

As long as you properly dosed the water, then everything should be good. I know some dechlorinators require the doses to be adjust according to the pond's volume ppm of chlorine/chloramine present, but this is not true for all of them.

If it was too many fish, wouldn't there be some ammonia? The ammonia is at 0.

Number of fish sound good. The floating, single cell algae is most likely consuming most of your ammonia. One of two beneficial aspects of algae is that this prehistoric plant can be your saving grace by acting as an extremely effecient bio-filter. However, of course, in this context of starting a new pond, the algae is more of a detriment, or major hindrance, to establishing your bacteria colonies in the bio-filter. Eventually, the algae will crash, but this might take some time. Some of the ammonia might be getting to your bio-filter as well.

As the bacteria is still young and likely still floating around in the water trying to get established, I would not recommend using a UV light at this point of time where you stand.


To me, the dieing fish is a concern, but, other than taking them out, there isn't much else you can do. If you do decide take them out, then you can approach jumpstarting the pond's bio-filter with a fishless cycle, which goes quite a bit faster at growing the bio-filter bacteria.

As of now, sounds like you're good so far. Maybe get a KH test kit and share a bit more info about your water parameters, as mentioned above, but you sound good so far. I'm trying to stay positive here. :blueflower:

 

[JohnHuff]

Huh? 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates. There was NO ammonia. Maybe you were reading the pH?

Ya, you're right, I was reading the ammonia as 8.4!

 

[dieselplower]

If it was too many fish, wouldn't there be some ammonia? The ammonia is at 0.

Not if the green water algae are consuming it. Seems they r thriving on it.

 

[joesandy1822]

Thank you to everybody who responded. I really appreciate other's input.

I will get a KH test kit to go with my master kit. Is it necessary to also test for phosphates or GH?

I will NOT do anything drastic like adding chemicals or other junk to move this along. I've learned from aquariums and my mini pond years ago that patience is the key ingredient. I know it will eventually clear up and one day it will be like, WOW, all of a sudden the water is just clear.

The fish dying is a concern, but possibly they were just not healthy to begin with, although they did look healthy outwardly. I don't want to get this going into another discussion about feeder fish. We all have to make our choices. Mine may have been naive based on past positive experiences with feeder fish, but life will go on regardless.

There is really no way to remove the fish to do a fishless cycle at this point. You can't see even a couple inches below the surface because of all the suspended algae. I am familiar with a fishless cycle, as I did it on my last aquarium. Worked like a charm, but the only reason I did fishless was because I didn't want to be left finding a home for 3 or 4 goldfish. Since I WANTED goldfish in my pond, I figured I'd just start with them to begin with. Did not consider how algae would come into play, competing with my filter for ammonia. That is not something you typically deal with in an aquarium. In retrospect, I would have done it differently. Again, we live and learn.

One thought though. If nitrates NEVER show up, then how will I know if my biofilter is doing anything at all? If the fish load is low and plant numbers are high, I guess this is a reason that a filter might not even be necessary (another hot thread here). I guess in the end it doesn't matter WHY there is no ammonia, nitrites, or high nitrates or WHAT is consuming them......just that the fish have healthy parameters. I would love the water to clear, of course, but I am confident that with time, it will clear up. Another life test in patience. I get a lot of those lately!

I am relieved, at least, to know that not rinsing my liner is probably not a great cause for concern.

Thanks again, everybody!

Sandy

 

[HTH]

Sandy the bio bacteria that will grow in the filter will successfully compete for the ammonia and the algae will starve.

There is always a supply of ammonia in ponds but the bio filter converts it at the same rate as it is produced. If algae was able to successfully compete with the bio bugs for ammonia we would all have green water all the time.

 

[crsublette]

Thank you to everybody who responded. I really appreciate other's input.

I will get a KH test kit to go with my master kit. 1) Is it necessary to also test for phosphates or GH?

2) I will NOT do anything drastic like adding chemicals or other junk to move this along. I've learned from aquariums and my mini pond years ago that patience is the key ingredient. I know it will eventually clear up and one day it will be like, WOW, all of a sudden the water is just clear.

The fish dying is a concern, but possibly they were just not healthy to begin with, although they did look healthy outwardly. I don't want to get this going into another discussion about feeder fish. We all have to make our choices. Mine may have been naive based on past positive experiences with feeder fish, but life will go on regardless.

There is really no way to remove the fish to do a fishless cycle at this point. You can't see even a couple inches below the surface because of all the suspended algae. I am familiar with a fishless cycle, as I did it on my last aquarium. Worked like a charm, but the only reason I did fishless was because I didn't want to be left finding a home for 3 or 4 goldfish. Since I WANTED goldfish in my pond, I figured I'd just start with them to begin with. 3) Did not consider how algae would come into play, competing with my filter for ammonia. That is not something you typically deal with in an aquarium. In retrospect, I would have done it differently. Again, we live and learn.

One thought though. 4) If nitrates NEVER show up, then how will I know if my biofilter is doing anything at all? If the fish load is low and plant numbers are high, I guess this is a reason that a filter might not even be necessary (another hot thread here). I guess in the end it doesn't matter WHY there is no ammonia, nitrites, or high nitrates or WHAT is consuming them......just that the fish have healthy parameters. I would love the water to clear, of course, but I am confident that with time, it will clear up. Another life test in patience. I get a lot of those lately!

I am relieved, at least, to know that not rinsing my liner is probably not a great cause for concern.

Thanks again, everybody!

Sandy

1) Is it necessary to also test for phosphates or GH?

Simple answer is, no.

In regards to the master test kit, you will mostly use the ammonia and nitrite tests in the beggining, maybe the high range pH and nitrate test kit occasionally or less often.

For the health of your pond's stable pH, GH is only important for the calcium it registers, but a high GH can mean low calcium since GH is the measure of all minerals present in the pond. Outside of calcium, the other minerals come into play for the health of your plants and particular fish pattern and colors. Just use a high range pH test kit and, when the pH starts to fluctuate up to around 8.6~9.0 or higher, then do a small water change or dose the pond with calcium chloride, no additives (1 pound per 1,000 gallons); always dissolve this stuff in a bucket first prior to adding to the pond and do not add on the same day as you add any bicarbonate product. Your source water might already have sufficient calcium levels so all you might need to do is do a small water change to replenish the minerals; this is why I asked about more details on your source water. To learn more and why, read the referenced hyperlinks within at, remedial water chemistry and treatment.

Phosphate test kits we have access to are very unreliable and the test results become skewed after just a minute of the test being done. Even though the box says it tests for total phosphate, this is not true due to the test metholody they use. These test kits actually are only testing a very small portion of phosphates that are used by algae or plants, that is orthophosphates, rather than testing the total active phosphates, which is what produces more orthophosphates. Phosphate test kits are a waste of money and only used for that "feel good" state of mind.


2) I will NOT do anything drastic like adding chemicals or other junk to move this along. I've learned from aquariums and my mini pond years ago that patience is the key ingredient. I know it will eventually clear up and one day it will be like, WOW, all of a sudden the water is just clear.

Good!!

Yeah, you will experience many new algae species that you have never experienced in your aquariums. It's going to be a brave new world for ya. You might even be able to knit some pants out of some of the algae species that might grow in the pond.


3) Did not consider how algae would come into play, competing with my filter for ammonia. That is not something you typically deal with in an aquarium. In retrospect, I would have done it differently. Again, we live and learn.

Algae won't stop ammonia from reaching your bio-filter, but, yes, algae does reduce the amount of ammonia reaching your bio-filter, that is to the extent that it might not be measurable by our test kits.

One thing to keep in mind, the test kits we have access to will never accurately measure, at the very low range, the chemicals in the pond. Once the chemicals accumulate to a noticeable level, then, yes, our test kits can measure this a bit more accurately. To measure more accurately small volumes of these chemicals, then you will have to start looking at the much more expensive HACH test kits, and still, even those, only test particular ions and only test at a particular variance.


4) If nitrates NEVER show up, then how will I know if my biofilter is doing anything at all? If the fish load is low and plant numbers are high, I guess this is a reason that a filter might not even be necessary (another hot thread here). I guess in the end it doesn't matter WHY there is no ammonia, nitrites, or high nitrates or WHAT is consuming them......just that the fish have healthy parameters. I would love the water to clear, of course, but I am confident that with time, it will clear up. Another life test in patience.

If nitrates never show up, you won't know if the good bacteria is doing anything at all, which is not always the true picture since the nitrates might just be used by the plants and algae present in the pond. Also, the good, nitrificating, bacteria do not only live in the bio-filter; these guys also live on any surface area where they can attach and grow. The reason bio-filters are used is due to that fact that particular, properly built, bio-filters better use the surface area available to grow much bigger and more efficient bacteria that can quickly overcome any major adversities your pond might experience. Also, bio-filters have a level of seperation from the pond, which means, if you ever want to oxidize your pond or use an aquatic herbicide in the pond (which both are fish safe when instructions are properly followed), then your bio-filter can be bypassed for a very short period of time



Sounds like you have a good head !! Just patience and maybe doing a little extra reading on the side. You're doing fabulous. :cheerful: :claphands: :banana: :afro:

 

[joesandy1822]

Sounds like you have a good head !! Just patience and maybe doing a little extra reading on the side. You're doing fabulous. :cheerful: :claphands: :banana: :afro:

Well thank you! And thanks for the great info. I just cancelled my order for the phosphate test kit. Thanks for the heads up. I can't afford to be wasting money.

Wish I knew how to knit. I am kind of fond of the color of algae. Good thing, as I will probably be looking at it for awhile!

Sandy

 

[joesandy1822]

Well, I am happy to say that patience really paid off, as always. Over the course of about 3 days last week, my pond just did that "WOW" thing and cleared up. I was so thrilled. However, I do have several questions now.

I got my GH and KH test kit a few days ago. Have not tested water yet, but will do that tonight or tomorrow. Should I also test my tap water and post those results? I will need help knowing what are "normal" limits. I know what normal is in an aquarium (did not have to know GH or KH for that), and I know what was "normal" for a swimming pool, but not for a pond. Does it all depend on pH?

We have been getting a LOT of rain. The pond turned cloudy again. I've read that it's common, but I want to know why? I do not believe it is due to runoff, so that option can be eliminated. So what other phenomenon causes ponds to cloud up after rain? The water is still cloudy, but it has been raining off and on for the past 4 days.

Also, my pond is 3,000 gallons. If I want to stabilize the pH, how many oyster shells do I put in, where do I put them, and where do you get them cheap? Is it just chicken grit? How do you contain that? I've raised chickens. That stuff is very tiny, and no bag I know of would keep it from falling out unless I used very tightly woven tulle from the fabric store.

Another unrelated question: My son swears he saw a baby fish! It was about 1/2" to 3/4" long, and black. But we just put smallish comets in when we stocked the pond, and then some 3" shubunkins a couple weeks ago. Is this even possible, or are we seeing things? Where can I get some decent info on the lifecycle of goldfish, spawning, etc? I've searched, but I don't find a lot of credible info like I could when I had aquariums. Do I need to provide some type of spawning mop or something? If there are baby fish, evidentally I have to do NOTHING.

Thanks again for your input. Maybe I should have started a new post for these questions, but thought you'd all like the update on my pond.

Sandy

 

[shakaho]

What you observed was perfectly normal. I've never seen measurable amounts of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in a pond from day one. As long as you stock lightly, the nitrifying bacteria, which are found in soil, will quickly seed your pond and grow fast enough to "eat" all of the ammonia produced. Algae will take care of the nitrates.