Question on water change

[audioenvy]

Do you have any other links. I have seen this video before. He also believes in the 'mythical' anti-growth pheromone.

I didn't say it was science--I just said they did it. Mud ponds fill from rain and snow runoff so there is natural flow-through. It's not anywhere near the 10% per day of the winter holding tanks but it's not a stagnant body of water either.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Yes the article does state all of that. I posted the link specifically because it addressed the life span of a Goldfish in a bowl with or without water changes.

Here is my statement that accompanied the link.
"And they don't live very long either even with water changes. Stress related maybe?"

That's because goldfish don't belong in bowls. They simply get too large for an environment so small. It is now generally recommend that fancy goldfish have a minimum of 20 gallons per fish. Commons/comets are recommend to have 40 gallons per fish (adult size)

Here is some information on caring for goldfish. Water changes are discussed.

https://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/info/keeping-fs.htm



By the way, several of my bettas over the years lived in bowls with routine complete water changes and they lived to see 5 and 6 years old. Pretty good for a betta.

 

[MitchM]

For 6 months of the year, I cannot do any water changes, my pond is frozen over.
I do not care about growth rates, colour or breeding volumes, therefore I focus on a healthy overall ecosystem.
Isn't that the best environment for any living creature?

.

 

[MitchM]

The guru has spoken, 15% each day. Case close.
/End thread

If that guy is using surface runoff for cheap water changes, he should be more concerned with what contaminants are in the surface runoff water, instead of pheromones.

 

[audioenvy]

If that guy is using surface runoff for cheap water changes, he should be more concerned with what contaminants are in the surface runoff water, instead of pheromones.

Surface runoff? He's saying trickle water into your waterfall from your hose and use the water at the bottom of your pond to water your plants.

The Japanese mud ponds are what use surface runoff for water changes.

 

[MitchM]

Surface runoff? He's saying trickle water into your waterfall from your hose and use the water at the bottom of your pond to water your plants.

The Japanese mud ponds are what use surface runoff for water changes.

He refers to Japanese mud ponds and incoming water to reduce pheromone buildup, that's what I'm referring to. We advise people to put up berms to avoid surface runoff entering. Kind of a mixed message.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

That's because goldfish don't belong in bowls

And I agree.

 

[audioenvy]

He refers to Japanese mud ponds and incoming water to reduce pheromone buildup, that's what I'm referring to. We advise people to put up berms to avoid surface runoff entering. Kind of a mixed message..

The Japanese mud pond has reached nearly magic levels of perception among Koi aficionados and I think it's more based on the fact that you are putting fish in an environment where they can't be seen and therefore there's a heightened level of anticipation for the harvest to see how they will turn out. The actual conditions probably aren't as ideal as people consider them to be--including water quality.

http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/MudPondMyth.pdf

Anyway, at a fundamental level I agree with you and Meyer regarding the benefits of a stable ecosystem in a garden pond where water changes are not necessary to manage water quality.

 

[IPA]

I imagined an arid flood plain with pools of water drying with fish in them and what would be necessary for the fish to survive until the next flood event. For me the most likely scenario was lack of eating but what if food was available, is there a queue to stop eating or will they just eat until the water is so polluted they all die?

Part (key point part) of the discussion for regular water changes in fish keeping is centered around the concept of quorum sensing. It is documented that bacteria and insects, bees and ants for example, use quorum sensing using pheromones to determine the size of the colony relative to the environment. At question is do vertebrates release pheromones for the purpose of quorum sensing?

I wish I had chosen biology as a career path because I know what my next research project would be. There is just not enough real evidence that this occurs outside of the fish keeping hobby/profession, and I am not saying there is evidence here either because so much seems like speculation however at the same time where is the evidence that it, quorum sensing, doesn't exist? What has caused the massively large scale population migrations from prehistoric times? Is it simply resources or do pheromones have a role to play in crowd sensing in all animals? Seems plausible.

So all of that being said, if I want to grow big healthy Koi I am going to follow the practices that have been tried and true for so long; and though I am the type of person to want to experiment I surely wouldn't use thousands of dollars worth of fish to do it.
And if I want to have an eco-pond that doesn't require water changes as regular maintenance I will seek the advice from those who have success in doing this.

EDIT: STRIKE THROUGH Can't we all just agree to disagree based on the lack of evidence one way or the other.

PS: sorry to have dragged you into this debate @audioenvy , I was just trying to use your set up as an example of a well designed system on the other spectrum of relying on plants to remove toxins.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I base my belief in the non-existence of an anti-growth pheromone on the complete lack of any supported scientific data on the subject save one or two decades old papers theorizing the possible existence. With much of the seafood today being produced by Aquaculture (about 50%) and growth rate to market size so critical, if such a pheromone existed there would be stacks of research papers on the subject. It would also be one of the areas of quality control in an inland aquaculture facility, but there is no mention of such a substance here either. Since there is evidently no problems encountered or reported of note in the growth rate of these farmed fish, then the inevitable conclusion is that such a problem (substance) does not exist.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Can't we all just agree to disagree based on the lack of evidence one way or the other

I think that at this point we pretty much agree.

Dedicated Koi ponds will likely require periodic water changes.
Eco-ponds will not.

 

[MitchM]

The Japanese mud pond has reached nearly magic levels of perception among Koi aficionados and I think it's more based on the fact that you are putting fish in an environment where they can't be seen and therefore there's a heightened level of anticipation for the harvest to see how they will turn out. The actual conditions probably aren't as ideal as people consider them to be--including water quality.

http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/MudPondMyth.pdf

Anyway, at a fundamental level I agree with you and Meyer regarding the benefits of a stable ecosystem in a garden pond where water changes are not necessary to manage water quality.

Yes, sometimes my thoughts don't always come out as intended on forums/email.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[IPA]

I base my belief in the non-existence of an anti-growth pheromone on the complete lack of any supported scientific data on the subject save one or two decades old papers theorizing the possible existence. With much of the seafood today being produced by Aquaculture (about 50%) and growth rate to market size so critical, if such a pheromone existed there would be stacks of research papers on the subject. It would also be one of the areas of quality control in an inland aquaculture facility, but there is no mention of such a substance here either. Since there is evidently no problems encountered or reported of note in the growth rate of these farmed fish, then the inevitable conclusion is that such a problem (substance) does not exist.

Something like this?
http://www.blueridgeaquaculture.com/

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Something like this?
http://www.blueridgeaquaculture.com/

Or this!

 

[audioenvy]

Yes, sometimes my thoughts don't always come out as intended on forums/email. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

No worries. I didn't take anything you said a contentious or a disagreement.